A couple quick comments on the speculation around today’s proposal
The offer put forward by the Union is said to be five years in length. A term that should make hockey fans all across the world, roll their eyes in disgust. The thought that the NHL could be back in this position again in just five short years is ridiculous. Everyone involved should want a longer term deal at this point so hopefully that element is quickly dismissed by the Owners.
Also, according to Donald Fehr, the latest offer is a significant move in the Owners direction and may actually represent the best offer the players are prepared to make. That kind of talk is ridiculous in a negotiation because you know both sides still have more to give. I mean, I understand why he has to say BS like that but it obviously isn’t true.
The two sides are expected to be back at the table around 1:00 PM. We'll have a better idea where things stand shortly after that.
Meh...
If the Calgary Flames are not in playoff position, and
If the Ottawa Senators are looking real good,
We should pick up UFA-to-be Jarome Iginla at the trade deadline
But that's only if we haven't acquired Patrick Sharp yet
what the heck happens with Gonchar this season? Does Ottawa hold on to him and let him walk for nothing, or try to get something out of his dwindling Contract?
What would you be willing to give up for Iggy? Feaster is going to have to get a Kings ransom or he will be run out of town. I live in Calgary and Iggy is held in the same esteem as Alfie is. I do think we are one of the teams he would waive his no trade clause for though. However, my guess is he would prefer to play with Sid the kid. I'm pretty sure Iggy will take a significant pay cut next year to play for a contender, he only cares about winning at this point in his career.
I think the going rate for top-tier UFA is a top-tier prospect and a 2nd round pick
its a hefty price considering his chances of re-signing (would Ottawa even want that?)
the go-to trade bait prospect is Zibby
how would flames fans feel about Zibby/2nd for UFA iginla?
Im not even sure how I feel about it, But Iginla is a can't-miss put you over the top type player and would look really good grinding on Spezza's wing
Who cares. lol
Yes the Pens have more to offer than Ottawa with centers like Crosby and Malkin to play beside and they have the past Stanley Cup success. But who do the Pens have that Calgary would want in return, that they would actually give up? If Ottawa decided to go after him, I can't see them selling the farm to do so either, or it would defeat the selling point we'd use to get him here, which is Ottawa having a younger core and higher potential for success in the next 2+ years. That is obviously what Calgary needs.
i really can't see him playing anywhere other than calgary. if that was the case you'd think they would have already pulled the trigger...
Will another team sign Gonchar for 5+ Mil? I really don't see that happening, and after the new CBA is in place (whenever that is), odds are all the stupid overpay contracts we've seen in the last few deadlines will be put to rest. If Gonchar is available at a reasonable cost, I don't see the harm in bringing him back to be in the top 4, especially considering the loss of Cowen. It's hard to find leadership in D right now, especially guys who can point the PP. Hell, maybe Gonchar knows that and he will get a better contract signed in Ottawa because he knows we'll be hurting for the experience.
Calgary's been in a tough spot the past few seasons.. they've really been living right on the border of buyers and sellers at trade deadline..they' ve got one of the best goalies in the league and all they've had to do is make it in, so its easy to see why they haven't been sellers yet. but eventually something has to give
if they were to trade Iginla it would mean full rebuild which is drastic for a team that isn't far off. But can they afford to keep him when its time to sign a new contract?
if not, they should take as much as they can get for him
If this work stoppage has no light at the end of the tunnel, they could totally make a soap opera out of Bettman and Fehr. All they would have to do this continue living life they way they are. The dynamics of the show would be above and beyond!
Im assuming they're suffering without those pay cheques. This new series would cover those lost pay cheques easily. they could let NBC could brodcast it too...as a way of saying sorry for not living up to the $200 million contract?
Then again it could just be them having trouble with the Math.
Prior to this season I also hoped it would be Gonchar's last and that he'd be gone by the trade deadline, but with the Cowen injury I'm not sure BM will take that type of chance with the roster. Possibly if 2 of Boro, Lundin, Wiercioch and Benoit perform at least respectably in the NHL, then the door may re-open for such a move, imo.
Just finished reading the latest NHLPA proposal. If the league digs their heels in now after the players finally got on the same page as them structure wise, it would be very disappointing. This really looks like a good place to start for the final CBA terms.
come to terms. In the meantime,I'll enjoy my Bingo
package on AHL.com.
I agree with you however I still keep going back to the thing I heard from Nick Kypreos about how most of the owners want to hit a home run and they are willing to blowing up this season and basically starting in september with the players who want to come back. The more and more I hear from the owners the more I believe that this is possible.
The way things are going, personally if they stay out a year fine with me. There are many more things that I and everyone else can spend thier time and money on. I really think the NHL may have really screwed things up this time and it may take a while for things to come back.
To be honest this would help explain a lot. I really thought (and stated many times) that the owners would have to be stupid to let the lockout go beyond the 1st 2 weeks of the season. But if they're trying to blow it all up, their "my way or the highway" attitude makes more sense. What a mess!
At least the Blue Jays are making enough moves to keep us all entertained.
Agreed.. this appears to be the first time the NHLPA has done a counter-proposa l off the NHL's last one.
From what I read (if I understand it correctly) they are 180M apart over 5 yrs on the make whole.. That's just less than 20M a season over the 30 teams. So what is worse.. that or the risk of losing sponsors if the season is lost and losing fan revenue... To me -- The NHL should try to go at 300M in the make whole.
I think the NHLPA offered 9 yr contracts but not with a variance? I didn't quite understand what they put in their to eliminate the front-end load deals.
Let the NHL put in the variance.. and 9 yr contracts should be sufficient.
The NHL has to give something to the NHLPA... it won't get done unless they do.
As for Gonchar.. if this does drag on until Jan and the league does start up.. would he take his children out of school for a few months to return to Ottawa? He may not come back but request a buyout from the Sens... Then the Sens will need a veteran defenseman.. question is, who is out there?
What's wrong with this picture?
Player signs 9 year contract, front loaded no less with a big fat no trade clause
Player shockingly does not perform up to expectations.
Player demands trade, still citing no trade clause
Player dictates where he plays next and completely handcuffs team that handed out initial contract.
To me, no trade clauses needed to addressed by altering them, perhaps its as simple as a maximum length or voiding it in the event player requests a trade.
5 year contracts make sense. As so many players have cited recently, their bodies take a lot of abuse and 9 years playing at that level is a long, long time.
interestingly, i think entry level contracts sometimes work for players as much as against them especially if they are a bubble player.
Switching gears;
Gonchar is definitely a guy that could be done with the NHL . If I'm Gonchar, I'd certainly consider finishing out my career playing in my home Country. He doesn't have anything left to prove in the NHL and his best days are behind him.
To quote Ryan on Oct 3rd 'I'm going to handle things the way I think things should be handled, I'm going to continue to skate with the guys … whether it's coming back here (to South Jersey) for a couple weeks at a time … I think it's important to stay here (in the United States) and be part of the solution and not just run from it.
Well played Bobby...
Cannot believe how stupid/greedy the players are if this is about money. They will get less, NOT MORE, the longer they hold out. They got the wrong guy in charge.......on both sides!!
right now for me, the enemies are the rich, superstars. sure bettman may have created the current conditions which led to 18 teams losing money last year but that cant be changed, and the only alternatives (reducing teams) removes jobs from the union. or being relocated to northern quebec or other canadian markets which im sure the players would not be pleased with (ie: winnipeg). Where would you rather play and live? winnipeg/quebec or florida or phoenix?
on the other hand, im all for cancelling the season, cause a short season where the contract gives the players more of what they want isn't good in the long run. sure, make whole on current contracts cause thats only fair, but nail their balls to walls on everything else so that teams can actually make money in any market, GM's from rich teams cant ruin contracts for everyone else, teams have a mechanism for dealing with players that do not perform, and do something about the no trade clause.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/11/21/spector_on_cba_nhl_players_are_losing_and_they_know_it/
Forgot about that. Wow
Chirp, similar articles were written last lockout, and though the initial reaction was that the players lost that one, they definitely didn't long term because of the player rights they were able to negotiate. If the players give in to 50-50 but can keep or improve some of their rights, there's still a decent chance the NHLPA is better off than just having accepted a completely lopsided deal.
The best offer last time, did not happen early in the canceled season, and all this rhetoric that it will only get worse from here is gamesmanship and nothing more. The damage to the game is real though, but the owners chose to sacrifice the fans for their own gain.
The players and Fehr have reiterated several times, this is not purely about money, it's about principles and player rights. If the NHL honored contracts and rights and just said we need to go to 50-50 most of the rest remains the same, the deal would've been signed a long time ago.
It's pretty much just selfish players that aren't willing to stand in and do their share for the long term of the union and the future players to come. Great to see him called out, and not surprising that such negative comments came from a greedy European. Hamrlick's the type of player I hope just stays in Europe, we don't need these types in the NHL or North America.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410028
Best quote from Cole - this is what the players are fighting for!
"For me, I don't look at this lockout and see what I'm not earning as the entitlement to, 'Let's get a deal done and let's get playing.' I see it as an opportunity to repay an opportunity that was given to me," added Cole.
"That's what this is supposed to be about, that's what makes hockey players different. You sacrifice something for the people coming behind you. That's where the respect factor comes in. Whoever's kid is the best kid on your son's hockey team, you want that kid to have the same opportunity that you've had. That's what it's about."
Usually have respect for 1000+ game players. Naive to expect Hamrlik to lookout for the younger #theplayers. #selfish
At least the offer was a counter-offer from the NHL's recent one. I can't believe the players thought that would get the deal done. They need a big reality check.
Now the talk is decertification . If that does happen it would probably result in about a 12 team league in about 2-3 yrs as most teams could not compete with the big spending teams. About 500 players would then be out of a job. Decertification would benefit the superstars and not the rest of the players. That could mean the end of the Ottawa Senators as I don't think Melnyk could compete with the Rangers, Flyers, Leafs in spending... and his dream of winning a Cup would be gone.
As for the draft -- in 2004/5 the lockout was settled on July 13/05.. and the draft was held on July 30/05 in Ottawa not the normal June 25th.. So it makes me think that without a CBA they won't hold a draft. Just my opinion based on what happened last time.
Hoping for a big win today for the B-Sens against the bloody Leafs AHL team... go get 'em Robin...
We may have seen the last of our captain. I am one of the few that still have hope. I at least expect them to talk. You have the offer you asked for NHL, now counter! Why wait any longer?
US Thanksgiving maybe? The players are angry... maybe they want them to calm down... I guess they assumed the Owners would jump at their offer and sign it on the spot... Really smart those players.
As Fehr said, the owners were more concerned about their Thanksgiving plans than wasting time negotiating.
But in all seriousness, I think the owners need some time to digest the latest offer now that they're at least talking a similar language.
Sandy, not one player said they expected the owners to sign their offer. But the response from the owners was way more negative and "take our offer or leave it" than it should've been. I don't know why you continue to make assumptions and put words in the players' mouths. Or are you just trolling at this point?
You wonder why the owners scoffed?
You want to share in the profits than you've got to be willing to share in the risk.
It's opinions that assume the players THINK it's 'take our offer or leave it'...
But whatever I write you don't approve of anyway.
Of course the players are angry... they say they want a deal... just like the Owners say they want a deal... but the deal is not happening. It's frustrating for everyone.
I copied this from another site in their comment section:
"They (NHLPA)are still asking for 57, 56, 53, 52, 50 (on a 5 year deal), with guaranteed salaries (if HRR drops as a result of the lockout past the first year, it comes 100% from the owner share). THEN, add in increased revenue sharing, a NEW player pension program, removal of walkaway rights on player arbatration."
Maybe THAT is why the Owners were so negative in their response. What in the above would the Owners accept? You tell us?
I'm tired of the lies from both sides. I'm tired of seeing Fehr & Bettman. I'm tired of the greed, arrogance and posturing. Just cancel the season now.. get it over with.
But Neuvirth tweeted this:
I agree 100% with Hammer. This lockout is not about majority of players, I think. It is about several superstars with big contracts.
=================
Now is that correct? Is the lockout and the 'fight' to get a deal... more about protecting the top superstars and their big contracts rather than the Union as a whole.
What other players are feeling the same way?
I wonder IF they put the last Owner's offer to a vote... what the outcome would be?
As for the %numbers, the NHL has also now agreed to 50/50 + make whole, which is where those other % numbers come from. 50% of revenue + amount due in each year for make whole = those percentages.
I'm not saying the players have totally done enough to get this thing done yet, but any final CBA will not be 50/50 until the entirety of the make whole provision is payed off, which the NHL has already shown agreement to (200mil vs 300 and some).
I actually agree a vote would be a good idea, but I think the results will actually be much more favorable for the current NHLPA direction then most expect. There are definitely going to be at least a good 25% that just want their paychecks and to play whatever that is cause they don't care what happens to the next generation. It's just funny those that are standing up for only themselves are not the ones considered greedy. To me that's as greedy as it comes from a player's side. It'll be interesting to see when the first North American citizen defies the file and rank, that's when I think the NHLPA might have a problem.
Just my opinion and I think you believe I disagree with you more than I do. I just disagree when you make assumptions contrary to the facts, aside from that I'm totally cool with you blaming, the players or both or whoever. Just trying to chat hockey with ya.
Chirp, any info on starters or do you have a game day post ready to go?
C'mon man!
Bettman did say that once.. that is was their best offer and it will get worse.. then they came up with 50-50.
Fehr said more or less last night that this offer by the PA was the best they could do. We shall see.
I believe there are moderates on both sides pushing their leaders to get a deal. But the hardliners (Fehr & Bettman) are not willing to do that.. yet.
I don't like Fehr and I think the Union is being unreasonable. I don't like Bettman either.. and some of the Owners 'wants' are not realistic either.
BUT the Owners need to make at least equal share. The NHL can't survive without it.
I'm more mad at the NHLPA than the Owners.. because all of this should have started in January... but Fehr was not ready. They NHLPA further delayed their first offer until August.. when they started negotiations the end of June.
I think Fehr's tactics are to frustrate the Owners into turning on one another thinking he will get them to sign a contract the NHLPA offers. The issue with that is it probably will not happen... and then does Fehr have another option? Decertifying perhaps? That would result in a mess bigger than the one they have now.
Agreed -- and Sportsnet should be covering it like they do a lot of Marlie games... but of course they are not..
I had an interesting phone conversation with Roman Hamrlik this morning. The following is a selection of quotes from him.
"I'm just frustrated, I've been in the league for 20 years and faced 3 lockouts.I believe I've earned the right to say what I think. I think time is against us and we need to find a solution. I think that it's a fight between 2 groups that have too much pride. I'm a little bit disappointed in what he(Eric Cole) said, he has 3 years left on his contract and I'm sure he got a nice signing bonus this summer, so I don't think he didn't have to sacrifice anything, so good for him, good agent. I'm just sending a message to Fehr, trying to push him a little bit, you know the older guys, we dont have much time, remember what happened in 2004, we then signed the same deal that was waiting for us right now on the table. You think players are going to come back next summer and say no were not playing, i dont think so, were going to sign the deal anyways."
In 12 games he has 9 wins, a 1.41 GAA and 0.953 SV% and was given Goalie of the month awards and Player of the week. The Falcons have only allowed 23 goals against this season, does Columbus have that good of a young squad in the wings?
And whats up with Dan Ellis playing for Charlotte, he's posted a 0.948 SV% thus far. These are the only two Goalies with a better save percentage than Lehner who has a 0.945%. And both have a good amount of NHL experience behind them, so that's a good sign for Lehner.
If you dig deeper two, it's funny how they were connected and cycled around to end up where they are. Tampa traded Dan Ellis to the Anaheim Ducks for Curtis McElhinney. Ducks use him for a short time but his groin injuries really hurt him and put him back. Then he gets a break and Charlotte signs him this year. Look at the other side of that and McElhinny is Claimed by the Sens off waivers from the Lightning, and is later signed as a UFA by Phoenix, only to have the Yotes trade him along with a 2nd round pick in 2012 and a conditional fifth in 2013 to the Jackets for Vermette.
While they've both had a rough go, the lockout has been great for them. Now these two are the top Goalies in the A this year. We often talk about players who may benefit from the lockout, these guys may do that.
The players were ready to continue with the old CBA that the owners wanted and won in the last fight. They could then continue discussing tweaks to it to help stabilize the overall business.
Instead the owners came with a completely ridiculous and insulting offer. I think Bettman/owners have done well in convincing some they are the "better" guys, I just feel like it's all bs when they speak. Given how firm the owners have been in their low offers, and each time stating it is their best (he's said that at least 3 times now), starting earlier would not have solved the situation as the pressure would not be on either side until the season began/was locked out.
I just don't get how a business that as a whole is making a profit, could lock out the players, ask for everything under the stars and then act like it's the players who are causing us to not have hockey.
I do agree though, both sides lie when they say this is the best offer they have to give.
Completely agree! It's been great to see both of them have such great starts to the year.
"You think players are going to come back next summer and say no were not playing, i dont think so, were going to sign the deal anyways."
Wow. This Hamrlik just undermined the entire NHLPA negotiations and he's not even sure he's in the majority. Up until now Fehr could pretend the players could take this beyond a year. Yes we all know they wouldn't, but no need to confirm that for Bettman publicly.
Coming to NBC this Winter ... Days of our NHL Lives lol... so much drama. I wish they just both took their ideal scenarios and school ground picked which points to keep back and forth or met in the middle on each one and got it over with. I guess the drama will just pick up in the coming days/weeks.
Old contract / New contract
2 different things...they aren't trying to change a contract in the middle of it, it's over....
Also, to Hamrlik's point, this thing is not about the majority and having played in the league as long as he has, shouldn't he have some say? That's how unions work
Lastly, what a crock of shit that they r looking out for future players when they r proposing a 5 year agreement.
Players just continue to discredit themselves by making stupid comments on twitter. Funny, I haven't heard anything out of Suter, Parise, Webber etc.
There is no point in defending either side's position, stance or bargaining strategy. Both are going for the kill, no one is thinking about the good of the game and no one deserves sympathy from fans.
But most importantly, nice win for bingo last night, can't wait to watch Bsens next couple nights!