Thursday, 14 March 2013 07:24

The Shootout Dilemma- NHL Created a Monster

Let's face facts: The shootout is not going away. 

The NHL believes that fans want a "winner" and didn't like ties.  You can debate if they were right about that or not, but what's done is done.  There is no way they'll eat crow and get rid of it now.  That would be like admitting they were wrong and we all know the NHL's record in that area (ahem, Phoenix, ahem). 

But TV networks and even arenas don't want playoff style OT - which can be endless - for games in September.  Coaches and GMs likely don't want to worry about the prospect of 100+ minute games playing teams like Minnesota either.  (The Wild led the NHL last season with 20 games going to the shootout).

So my suggestion starts with something that's already a popular idea and far from original.

Change #1: Three-on-three double OT.  (And it starts one minute after the first OT - no flood, no scrape.)

But I have a few additional suggestions that I think help ensure that games are decided BEFORE a shootout (which is a concept even people who don't hate the shootout can get behind).

First off, you need to limit whistles.  Tired players, frantic line changes and continuous play makes for exciting hockey (not to mention less "real" time making networks or arena staff impatient).  So with that:

Change #2: In 2OT, no icing and no offside (no lines basically)

Change #3: In 2OT, no line changes after any whistle* - puck is dropped as quickly as officials can get set

* If a player is injured they can leave the game entirely (cannot return) and someone can substitute in.  On a penalty, the penalized player leaves the ice but no other players may change until after the puck is dropped again.

The idea here is that less whistles equates to more north-south hockey, more turnovers and on-the-fly line changes.  More chances for mistakes and mistakes in the NHL typically lead to odd man rushes and highlight reel goals or saves.  Referees could also encourage goalies to move the puck if no fore-checker is nearby or face a delay of game penalty.  Anything within reason to limit the number of whistles and keep the play moving.

Should that still fail to produce a winning goal, one more rule change on penalty shots in general (and of course applied in the shootout) would prevent things from turning into a Daug and Perry show.  (Daugavins-style puck pin or Perry-style lacrosse play.)

Change #4: A player taking a penalty shot cannot touch the puck until after the official whistles it into play (the puck is on the center dot, player outside faceoff circle)

Once the player starts forward to the puck, they cannot stop moving forward.  Meaning if someone wants to try pinning or lifting the puck, they risk fumbling the puck and blowing their attempt (similar to a clear break away).  That should, for the most part, limit shootout attempts to what players could theoretically try in a game (Google "Phil Bourque breakaway 1990").

Now About Awarding Points

3 points for a win positively horrifies purists and casual fans alike, and for good reason in my opinion.  And there are crazier ideas out there: I've seen people suggest half points or systems starting with 5 points for a regulation win etc.  My changes here are far from extreme but still motivates teams to do everything they can to settle the game BEFORE the shootout.  Teams still get two points for a win in regulation, overtime or double overtime but:

Change #5: Only 1 point for shootout win

Change #6: 0 points if you lose (no matter when)

Put another way, there are no more charity points for "losing slowly" (in OT or SO) and less reward for a team not able to put their opponent away before the shootout.  Regulation wins becomes the new tie breaker in the standings rather than ROW (a small motivator to win in regulation).

Without the consolation point for losers, no team will "settle" for OT or a shootout since there's no guaranteed point.  Making the last few minutes of regulation pretty wild in a tie game.  And the 2OT would get pretty desperate when your best case in a shootout is only a single point.

Perfect?  No.  I'm sure players and coaches will find creative ways to exploit the rules to try and get a couple of extra points in the standings along the way.  But I think this would encourage teams to simply play hard to win games in regulation, or at the very least before the shootout.  Of course, had these rules been in place in 2011-2012 teams would have played with different intensity (I hope, since that's the intention of these suggested changes) but here's how the final East standings would have looked with the suggested points system. 

TEAM W L OT SoW Regulation W PTS
NYR 51 24 7 4 39 98
BOS 49 29 4 9 38 89
WSH 42 32 8 4 31 80
PIT 51 25 6 9 40 93
PHI 47 26 9 4 37 90
NJ 48 28 6 12 32 84
OTT 41 31 10 6 30 76
TB 38 36 8 3 25 73
BUF 39 32 11 7 27 71
FLA 38 26 18 6 31 70
WIN

37

35 10 4 27 70
TOR 35 37 10 4 26 66

CAR

33 33 16 1 29 65
NYI 34 37 11 7 24 61
MTL 31 35 16 5 24 57

 

The biggest thing here is that Florida falls right out of the playoff picture (Washington now winning the Southeast) with the Lightning taking their spot (and bumping Ottawa up to the 7th seed where we would have had our chance to use all those Obama-Thomas jokes we all planned).  Ah what might have been.  Note that the 3-2-1 system doesn't impact playoff seeding at all and barely tweaks lottery seeding.

One Last Rule Change...

Since I'm on a roll here (and just because it's a pet peeve of mine):

Change #7: Any player who still has penalty time to serve when 2OT ends is NOT eligible for the shootout.

 

-Hax

Last modified on Thursday, 14 March 2013 08:22

Comments   Jump to Last Post

 
0 #1 Merchaholic 2013-03-14 07:48
If only Lehner was a monster in the shootout we would be set.
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+2 #2 Deeze 2013-03-14 08:00
I appreciate you coming from a different perspective and trying to manage a solution to avoid the shootout; however, your opening said it all: the shootout is not going away. Your system seems to be unfair to the players, whereas the shootout is a farce for goaltenders. As you mentioned, people don't like prolonging the game more than it needs to be although continuous OT is the only solution that I personally see fit in deciding a winner and loser, but I'll keep dreaming. In regards to Ottawa specifically, they either need to get a player or two who has an arsenal of shootout material or switch up Turris and, dare I say it, Alfie. In the past shootouts we've had all they've done is skate to the hash marks and fire off a shot. I realize it has worked for Silfverberg, but his release is unparalleled. MacLean needs those two to either switch up their techniques, or switch up the players he's choosing. I apologize for going a bit off topic but enjoyed your post nonetheless, good job.
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0 #3 Adam Smith 2013-03-14 08:18
Hey Chirp it says written by SensChirp at the top. Did you write it or Hax? Just curious as I hope credit is given for a well written article! Thanks
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0 #4 SensChirp 2013-03-14 08:21
Quoting AdaM SmitH:
Hey Chirp it says written by SensChirp at the top. Did you write it or Hax? Just curious as I hope credit is given for a well written article! Thanks

Yup, Hax wrote it! Trying to find a way to switch that so it doesn't default to SensChirp.
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+4 #5 Hax 2013-03-14 08:24
Quoting SensChirp:
Quoting AdaM SmitH:
Hey Chirp it says written by SensChirp at the top. Did you write it or Hax? Just curious as I hope credit is given for a well written article! Thanks

Yup, Hax wrote it! Trying to find a way to switch that so it doesn't default to SensChirp.


Chirp has been stealing my work for a long time now - glad it's finally out in the open.

LOL
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0 #6 SensChirp 2013-03-14 08:25
Quoting Hax:
Quoting SensChirp:
Quoting AdaM SmitH:
Hey Chirp it says written by SensChirp at the top. Did you write it or Hax? Just curious as I hope credit is given for a well written article! Thanks

Yup, Hax wrote it! Trying to find a way to switch that so it doesn't default to SensChirp.


Chirp has been stealing my work for a long time now - glad it's finally out in the open.

LOL

Well not "out in the open". Just in this new section that nobody reads...
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0 #7 Merchaholic 2013-03-14 08:55
Quoting SensChirp:
Quoting Hax:
Quoting SensChirp:
Quoting AdaM SmitH:
Hey Chirp it says written by SensChirp at the top. Did you write it or Hax? Just curious as I hope credit is given for a well written article! Thanks

Yup, Hax wrote it! Trying to find a way to switch that so it doesn't default to SensChirp.


Chirp has been stealing my work for a long time now - glad it's finally out in the open.

LOL

Well not "out in the open". Just in this new section that nobody reads...


It shows up in the main headlines so I think it will do alright in the view department.
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0 #8 Tookie 2013-03-14 08:56
Hmm 0pts for losing in OT or SO....sounds familiar...j/k :)

Good article Hax!
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-2 #9 Merchaholic 2013-03-14 09:16
2 points for winning in OT and 1 point for losing in OT.

1.5 points for winning in the shootout and half a point for losing in the shootout.
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0 #10 Cooke-d 2013-03-14 09:39
Great job Hax, but I can't stand the idea of 0 pts for all losses. I get that there shouldn't be an incentive to tie/lose, but...

1) Teams should be rewarded for close games, like Ottawa's 1-3 comeback last night. There's a difference between losing 5-0 and 6-5 during a 3-on-3 2nd OT, and it should be reflected in the standings.

2) In making all losses equal there is less incentive for teams to play from behind - this ignores hockey mentality, but nonetheless...

3) Some games will still be worth more than others (ie - 2pts for a win in regulation versus 1pt for a SO win). This doesn't make sense to me, as you're now penalized for not winning rather than incentivized for not losing. Same difference to me... all games should be worth the same amount of points.

Continued...
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0 #11 Cooke-d 2013-03-14 09:40
Continued...

I don't understand why people don't like the idea of a 3pt regulation win, 2pt OT/SO win and 1pt OT/SO loss. To me, it makes the most sense.

If people truly hate the shootout AND the idea of a 3pt win, I'd rather see:

2pts - Regulation Win / Overtime Win
1pt - Shootout - regardless of winner.

(Shootout wins to count in Win%, which acts as a tie-breaker come season's end)

However, I think the following is my favourite solution:

3pts - Regulation Win and Overtime Win
2pts - Shootout Win
1pt - Shootout Loss
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+2 #12 The Apostle 2013-03-14 09:53
flood and scrape sounds like a medical procedure
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0 #13 Hax 2013-03-14 09:54
Outside of NFL where they have ties, no other sport rewards "close games". While I get the idea that it sort of sucks to lose in OT and have the same end result in the standings as losing 7-0, to me that just adds drama to OT.

As for no incentive to play from behind I'm not sure I agree. Today you need to get to OT to get a point. In my scenario you'd need to get to OT to have a chance at 2 points. The only real difference is that you don't get partially rewarded for getting there - which I don't think makes teams any less desperate to tie it up.

Again, not saying it's the perfect system at all - in fact mathematically the 3-2-1 system is closer to "fair" but I just don't see that getting past purist who would see it as too radical a change. Plus it still encourages teams to "hold out" for a shootout which is what my suggestion was trying to minimize.

Thanks for the feedback guys.
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0 #14 Hax 2013-03-14 10:01
Quoting Cooke-d:

If people truly hate the shootout AND the idea of a 3pt win, I'd rather see:

2pts - Regulation Win / Overtime Win
1pt - Shootout - regardless of winner.


This is intriguing as well. Though I wonder if the NHL would feel it takes too much "meaning" out of the shootout. It certainly would motivate teams to battle harder for the extra point and also prevent teams to move up in the standings based on their shootout prowess.

EDIT: That system would have knocked Florida to the 7th seed (WAS wins the division) last year but otherwise rankings wouldn't have changed. Which makes me think it's a decent idea since Florida amassed a lot of points with shootouts.
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0 #15 SNOOPY SENIOR 2013-03-14 10:33
Quoting Hax:
[quote name="Cooke-d"]
If people truly hate the shootout AND the idea of a 3pt win, I'd rather see:

2pts - Regulation Win / Overtime Win
1pt - Shootout - regardless of winner.


This is intriguing as well. Though I wonder if the NHL would feel it takes too much "meaning" out of the shootout. It certainly would motivate teams to battle harder for the extra point and also prevent teams to move up in the standings based on their shootout prowess.

EDIT: That system would have knocked Florida to the 7th seed (WAS wins the di

@Cooke-d & Hax,

I agree with 2 points for both Regulation and Overtime win.

If it goes to a shootout both teams get 1 point. This would give teams an incentive to win in both Regulation and Overtime.

It is really the same as getting a tie for which both teams got 1 point years ago!

Very clear and simple.
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0 #16 Cooke-d 2013-03-14 10:35
Quoting Hax:

Outside of NFL where they have ties, no other sport rewards "close games". While I get the idea that it sort of sucks to lose in OT and have the same end result in the standings as losing 7-0, to me that just adds drama to OT.


The NFL just did away with ties in both regular season and playoffs, and now their OT system is pretty awesome.

However, the NFL/MLB/NBA all have a multitude of scoring plays... in the NHL a goal is a goal, and that's it (no 2 run plays, field goals or free throws). So, I'd be inclined to say that a close game in the NHL is different from a close game in the other sports. The closest comparable, IMO, is soccer (which does have ties, 3pts for a win and sometimes a shootout).

Just food for thought.
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0 #17 Hax 2013-03-14 10:38
Quoting Cooke-d:
The NFL just did away with ties in both regular season and playoffs, and now their OT system is pretty awesome.

However, the NFL/MLB/NBA all have a multitude of scoring plays... in the NHL a goal is a goal, and that's it (no 2 run plays, field goals or free throws). So, I'd be inclined to say that a close game in the NHL is different from a close game in the other sports. The closest comparable, IMO, is soccer (which does have ties, 3pts for a win and sometimes a shootout).

Just food for thought.


All good points (no pun intended) but I'm not sure I heard about the NFL getting rid of ties in the regular season. I know they changed OT format (which I like) but I thought you could still tie in the regular season.
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0 #18 Cooke-d 2013-03-14 10:46
Quoting Hax:

As for no incentive to play from behind I'm not sure I agree. Today you need to get to OT to get a point. In my scenario you'd need to get to OT to have a chance at 2 points. The only real difference is that you don't get partially rewarded for getting there - which I don't think makes teams any less desperate to tie it up.


I completely agree,

but regarding the incentive to play from behind... which I don't think matters, as all competitors (should) have thier own drive to win... eliminating the point for making it to OT makes the prospect of a comeback less rewarding.

It's just a weird consequence of taking that point away. If I'm Alexandre Daigle playing the third game in four nights and I can only get points for winning outright, I'm probably not AS motivated to tie the game if I'm down a goal late in the third...
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0 #19 Cooke-d 2013-03-14 10:49
Quoting Hax:
Quoting Cooke-d:
The NFL just did away with ties in both regular season and playoffs, and now their OT system is pretty awesome.

However, the NFL/MLB/NBA all have a multitude of scoring plays... in the NHL a goal is a goal, and that's it (no 2 run plays, field goals or free throws). So, I'd be inclined to say that a close game in the NHL is different from a close game in the other sports. The closest comparable, IMO, is soccer (which does have ties, 3pts for a win and sometimes a shootout).

Just food for thought.


All good points (no pun intended) but I'm not sure I heard about the NFL getting rid of ties in the regular season. I know they changed OT format (which I like) but I thought you could still tie in the regular season.


Yep... in March 2012

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rules
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0 #20 CardiacKids 2013-03-14 11:22
keeping it plain and simpl...
A win is a win ...in football (aka soccer and yes i know people are going to start their bickering about it but it isnt the number 1 sport for no reason)... a win is a win, regardless of overtime (extra-time) or shootout (penalty shots). The winning team gets 3 points there are no loser points. In football, it forces every team to win in regulation time since they all know penalty shots is a game of chance. So why reward a team 1 point for losing??????? you win ... 3 points you lose no points

Put a tie back into the game.. if after regulation time, overtime (whatever 5on5 or 4on4 doesn`t matter) and each team gets 5 shots in shootout and if its tied after that then its TIED!! both teams gets 1 point and that`s that

The winners will be separated very quickly..

easy peasy....

HAX, would be really curious if you could re-do the chart with the above...:)
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0 #21 senskarlsson57 2013-03-14 11:24
Quoting Merchaholic:
2 points for winning in OT and 1 point for losing in OT.

1.5 points for winning in the shootout and half a point for losing in the shootout.


OR we could give 1/16 of a point for every near goal you score in the shootout, and 1/6 of a point for every goal you actually score in the shootout. Then we could give 1/4 points for big saves in OT and 1/13 points for saves made in a shootout!!!
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+1 #22 Hax 2013-03-14 12:08
Quoting CardiacKids:
HAX, would be really curious if you could re-do the chart with the above...:)


2011-12 East standings using 3 points for any win before the shootout and 1 point each for reaching the shootout (treating shootouts as ties). Panthers sneak in with a bunch of ties.

NYR 150 (47-26-9)
BOS 132 (40-30-12)
WAS 122 (38-36-8)
PHI 140 (43-28-11)
PIT 138 (42-28-12)
NJ 124 (36-30-16)
Sens 115 (35-37-10)
FLA 113 (32-33-17)
TB 111 (35-41-6)
BUF 110 (32-36-14)
WIN 107 (33-41-8)
CAR 103 (32-43-7)
TOR 102 (31-42-9)
MON 95 (26-39-17)
NYI 92 (27-44-11)
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0 #23 CardiacKids 2013-03-14 12:27
Quoting Hax:
Quoting CardiacKids:
HAX, would be really curious if you could re-do the chart with the above...:)


2011-12 East standings using 3 points for any win before the shootout and 1 point each for reaching the shootout (treating shootouts as ties). Panthers sneak in with a bunch of ties.

NYR 150 (47-26-9)
BOS 132 (40-30-12)
WAS 122 (38-36-8)
PHI 140 (43-28-11)
PIT 138 (42-28-12)
NJ 124 (36-30-16)
Sens 115 (35-37-10)
FLA 113 (32-33-17)
TB 111 (35-41-6)
BUF 110 (32-36-14)
WIN 107 (33-41-8)
CAR 103 (32-43-7)
TOR 102 (31-42-9)
MON 95 (26-39-17)
NYI 92 (27-44-11)


awesome thanks Hax! clearly it shows a clean win means everything and thats what will raise the competition to get the 3 points no one will want to go to OT or SO to get 1 point or give 1 point to anyone this will automatically make the gimmicky or by-chance shootout a rare instance..
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+1 #24 Kamel 2013-03-14 12:31
Quoting Hax:
Quoting Cooke-d:


All good points (no pun intended) but I'm not sure I heard about the NFL getting rid of ties in the regular season. I know they changed OT format (which I like) but I thought you could still tie in the regular season.


Yep... in March 2012

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rules



The 49ers and Rams tied in November 2012, the first one in four years, so I think only the OT format was changed for the regular season and not the ability to tie.

(not to derail any further)
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+1 #25 SensChirp 2013-03-14 12:36
Thanks to Hax for breaking the ice in this section. This is exactly the type of article I was hoping for.

Any idea beyond just the usual day to day Sens discussion that is well thought out and provokes discussion. Extremely well done.

Keep em comin' folks!
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0 #26 The Apostle 2013-03-14 14:15
Quoting CardiacKids:
keeping it plain and simpl...
A win is a win ...in football (aka soccer and yes i know people are going to start their bickering about it but it isnt the number 1 sport for no reason)... a win is a win, regardless of overtime (extra-time) or shootout (penalty shots). The winning team gets 3 points there are no loser points. In football, it forces every team to win in regulation time since they all know penalty shots is a game of chance. So why reward a team 1 point for losing??????? you win ... 3 points you lose no points



not srictly true - extra time and penalty shoot outs are only used in knockout (playoff) football during which no points are awarded.

Every major league in football utilise the draw during the regular season and the points format is generally 3pts for a win, 1pt each for a draw and 0pts for a loss.

It used to be 2pts win but that was changed (i'm guessing about 25 years ago).
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0 #27 JustSayin 2013-03-14 15:19
Some decent idea and a well written article. I like the idea of having other contributors ADDING to what Chirp does (no slacking off Chirp since you're the guy we really come to read).

I also like the idea of different styles - some people heavy on stats, some people focusing on more general NHL topics, not just Sens.

I hope others join Hax in submitting articles.
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0 #28 CardiacKids 2013-03-14 15:44
Quoting The Apostle:


not srictly true - extra time and penalty shoot outs are only used in knockout (playoff) football during which no points are awarded.

Every major league in football utilise the draw during the regular season and the points format is generally 3pts for a win, 1pt each for a draw and 0pts for a loss.

It used to be 2pts win but that was changed (i'm guessing about 25 years ago).


definitely not suggesting we follow OT and SO for playoffs like only like football but because the fanbase really wants a clear winner in a hockey game since it brings entertainment to the game then sure put OT and SO in regular games too but still counts as a draw or clear winner at the end of it.
In playoffs, perhaps OT then SO (5shots) and then sudden death SO I would think?
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0 #29 Hax 2013-03-14 15:54
Quoting CardiacKids:

definitely not suggesting we follow OT and SO for playoffs like only like football but because the fanbase really wants a clear winner in a hockey game since it brings entertainment to the game then sure put OT and SO in regular games too but still counts as a draw or clear winner at the end of it.
In playoffs, perhaps OT then SO (5shots) and then sudden death SO I would think?


Playoff format has to stay as is in my opinion. Play until you get a (real) winner. People will stay engaged in long OT games if it's a playoff game but not in regular season games in general.
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0 #30 CardiacKids 2013-03-14 18:11
Quoting Hax:
Quoting CardiacKids:

definitely not suggesting we follow OT and SO for playoffs like only like football but because the fanbase really wants a clear winner in a hockey game since it brings entertainment to the game then sure put OT and SO in regular games too but still counts as a draw or clear winner at the end of it.
In playoffs, perhaps OT then SO (5shots) and then sudden death SO I would think?


Playoff format has to stay as is in my opinion. Play until you get a (real) winner. People will stay engaged in long OT games if it's a playoff game but not in regular season games in general.


ya i would have to agree definitely enjoy the OT playoff games for sure dont want to mess with that.
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+1 #31 T K 2013-03-14 22:54
I still think that a 3 point victory (soccer style) is simplest solution. Clear win: 3 points
OT or SO win: 2 points
OT or SO loss: 1 point
Regulation loss: 0.

Solves all issues.
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0 #32 Aaron 2.0 2013-03-14 23:11
Quoting Cooke-d:
Continued...

I don't understand why people don't like the idea of a 3pt regulation win, 2pt OT/SO win and 1pt OT/SO loss. To me, it makes the most sense.

If people truly hate the shootout AND the idea of a 3pt win, I'd rather see:

2pts - Regulation Win / Overtime Win
1pt - Shootout - regardless of winner.

(Shootout wins to count in Win%, which acts as a tie-breaker come season's end)

However, I think the following is my favourite solution:

3pts - Regulation Win and Overtime Win
2pts - Shootout Win
1pt - Shootout Loss



I agree with you 100%. All games should be worth the same amount of points. The 3 pt win, 2 pt OT/SO win, 1 pt SO loss does that. And all games are equal. No more 2 pt games (in regulation) and 3 pt games (in OT or SO). I've always found it amateur-esque that not all games are created equal since they did away with ties.
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0 #33 MethotToMyMadness 2013-03-18 17:02
I have to say I'm actually a fan of the shootout, I enjoy watching it to see what type of skill some of the not so popular named players have. And I enjoy watching some of the great saves. But in the end, it's all about the shooters.

It's a tough way to lose a game though, but knowing you get the 1 point is somewhat refreshing, considering the shootout is a gamble to a degree. There are a few teams who've went out and picked up players who are naturally good at it, and they do it for that reason.

And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the other reason for the point system change to make it a tighter race to make the playoffs? It adds that thrill to the very end for teams who haven't been as successful through the year.
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0 #34 Bud 2013-03-19 10:48
Hax,

Good article, always enjoyed reading your opinions on SensChirp. My solution to the shootout is to take a different approach. Simply, make a regulation win 3 points, keep OT and SO wins as 1 point and a loss is obviouly 0. I think this would make teams strive for a regulation win, thus reducing the said amount of shootouts without actually tweaking or adding anything.
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ChirpEd The Shootout Dilemma- NHL Created a Monster