On the ice, the Sens practiced at the Bell Sensplex ahead of their match up with Sidney Crosby and the Pittsburgh Penguins. Everyone was in attendance with the exception of injured forwards Chris Neil and Peter Regin. If you watched any of Crosby's return last night you'll know the Sens could probably use a couple extra practice days to prepare.
Crosby appeared to be in midseason form and with the likes of Malkin, Staal and Letang making up a supporting cast, the Senators will have to be at their absolute best.
On All Star Game Voting
The NHL released the results of the first week of voting for the starting line up for the All Star Game and there was plenty of good news for the Ottawa Senators. Erik Karlsson incredibly leads all players with 147,468 votes. Daniel Alfredsson is at the top of the heap among forwards (131,774- VoteAlfie!) while Spezza sits in third (117,899) and Milan Michalek following close behind in fourth place (108,247).
It's an amazing start but it's important we continue to promote the campaign. You can go here to cast your vote (30 times), text the name of a Senator to 81812 (30 times) and you can vote an additional 30 times from your mobile device. The Sens have turned some heads with the first round of balloting but we'll need to keep it up!
Tell your friends, family and co-workers! Let's make sure our Senators are well represented!
On the New Scoreboard
This has to be the question I get asked the most often these days. With the Sens set to host the NHL All Star Game at the end of January, fans would love to hear some good news regarding the installation of a new scoreboard. Right now this issue could not be more "on again, off again".
Spoke with a quality contact the other day who told me there is essentially still one signature missing. If you saw the comment section yesterday, one reader suggested the possibility of leasing a new board rather than buying and that is entirely possible.
Money is fairly tight for the Senators right now and a new scoreboard would be a substantial addition. I still get the sense there is time to get this thing done but there is definitely some work to do before any installation can actually take place.
On Kyle Turris
After holding out the entire season to date, the Phoenix Coyotes have signed forward Kyle Turris to a surprisingly low 2 year deal worth a total of $2.8 million. But according to multiple reports, this saga may not be over. With Turris signed to a deal, and some obvious bad blood lingering between the two sides, a trade is still very much a possibility.
The Sens definitely have an interest in the forward but the Coyotes are certainly not going to give him away. The price might be more than Sens GM Bryan Murray is willing to pay right now although he would fit in nicely on the team's second line.
You mentioned money is fairly tight for the Sens. Is Melnyk in financial trouble? Did he lose a lot of his wealth in his divorce? I certainly hope not.... don't want to see another bankruptcy situation like we did with Brydon.
The team is operating with a lower payroll and has cut some corners in other areas this year. An addition like a scoreboard is significant investment with no real return.
I understand we're most likely not making the playoffs and therefore making less but were saving almost 20million just from player salaries compared to most years when were spending to the cap. If you say were cutting corners elsewhere as well we should have plenty of money for really what has become a necessity. A real eye soar/an embarrassment compared to others teams around the league. I really think this is an absolute must before the all star game.
I'd home we could score Turris relatively cheap. IE Lee, pick
We must get a new scoreboard by January!!
Agreed and hopefully they are able to get something done. The eyes of the league will be on the team, the city, and the building. Hope we can deliver the best experience possible.
2 players I wish murray made a serious pitch for are either one or both of the 2 Kyle's ...Turris and Okposo ..
Greening Spezza Michalek
Folingo Turris Okposo
Silfverberg Zibanejad Alfredsson
Condra Smith Neil
...another disillusioned Senators fan who thinks an underachieving former top-ten pick is the answer...Turris ' attitude stinks - many reports that he has "it's all about me" attitude and seems to lack real effort during games (despite "pure talent) - sounds a lot like a Russian playing in Bingo right now...
You can keep your Turris's, Brassard's and any other first-round disappointments - let's stick to the gameplan of drafting within and building a team with a group that cares...
Is this your drsam line-up for this season or 2014/2015? Because I think Alfie will be retired by the time Silfverberg and Z-bad are regualrs...
And why would the Islanders get rid of Oksposo???
Maybe not as far as selling 5$ glasses to view the behemoth but certainly gains Melnyk a lot in fan experience.
Look at the svoreboard in pitts or mtl, they are huge, gorgeous and easily visible from anywhere, including your home couch.
Ottawa should fork up the money and invest into a piece of equipement that will last 20 years and make everyone enjoy all the goals and hits they may have missed while sneezing or getting a beer. They may even sell more tickets because you can bring grama with trifocal binauculars to the game and have her know what's going on.
Its simply a MUST for this team and fans
All Senators fans should thank their lucky stars Uncle Eugene came in and saved the day!
Everyone say "Thank you Uncle Eugene for the nice scoreboard we have.."
Is this your drsam line-up for this season or 2014/2015? Because I think Alfie will be retired by the time Silfverberg and Z-bad are regualrs...
And why would the Islanders get rid of Oksposo???
Silfverberg and Zibby will be in line up next year ..2014/2015 what ?
..Murray was begging the Silfverberg too stay this year ..Next year he is full time senator
And as far as Okposo he is being shopped it has been talked about and out there for past couple of weeks
It was reported he was enquiring to see if they needed a back-up zamboni driver...
It time for you and your thinking to enter the twenty-first century. The days of dictating to the kids are over. Bring your friends Yorkie, Galley and Doug Maclean with you...I think the younger generation with the power of decision scare you "neanderthals!"
"The players are the product!"
So...how did you enjoy your time occupying Confederation Park?
I wish I could rebute your comment, but I have no idea what the hell you're talking about...
If it were just the quality at issue, it would still be embarrassing.
The malfunctions are an entirely different matter. Last game I went to, it displayed all sorts of crazy shit. The announcer was over the loudspeaker every minute or two during play. That was annoying.
Let's get our shit together or just get an old scoreboard made of 100 or so light bulbs.
What we have here is a failure to communicate...a generation gap...the MGMT of the game has past you by...if you treat a player like a dog, the dog bites BACK. So enough of thiS...the league owns the team and Gary is going to show this punk what's up...Kyle calmly waited to the very last moment to show his displeasure with Dave Tippett and to be sure Maloney knew he was moving on. Oh and by the way that's pretty nice money for a kid who was a discard yesterdaY.
He has been rehabbing at the Bell SensPlex just down the road. Say what you will about LeClaire (and I'd likely agree with you), but he's still a player that the other players always liked. He's a good fun guy to have around.
oh, and what team would anyone say is THE MOST respected in the NHL the past 15 years? If you said the Detroit Red Wings, you'd be right. - The Red Wings currently still have an older model scoreboard, same as the one we currently have.
If you want the new scoreboard, speak up with your own actions, and go to the damn game.
BTW - I hate the Canucks and their fans. total clowns.
~Peluso
ive been to maybe 5 games this year and in maybe 2 or 3 of them. the scoreboard was just horrible, especially in the last 5-10minutes when it really mattered. i rember specificly in the jackets game, in the last 5 minutes it read that there was 89minutes left in play and we out shot them something like 90-5 and apparently that day the jackets were from phoenix. it was a bunch of non sense and the worst part is they just gave up on it and the announcer would just announce every minute or so how much time remained in the game.
Here are two players Murray should try to trade for one that will cost too much and probally is not being shopped but would be a good fit here with the Senators and another one who is not having a good year and probally needs a change of scenary and could be had for nothing.
Murray should trade for one of Brendan Morrow or Dustin Penner.
Also if Zach Parise becomes a free agent this summer Murray should try to sign Parise.
That would be great - a drunk and a whiny little bitch - don't think we need to go all trailor park here
Parise? Penner??? What colour is the sky in your world? Like we need Penner - a notorious under-achiever and as much as I'd love Parise I don't see NJ letting him walk away.
which one is the drunk lol think u are thinking about OSHIE not Okposo close though lol
Ours malfunctions almost every game, how would it look if all star game was remebered because a mafunction where we couldn't keep game timing correct. This is a must and I'm sure the league has mentioned something to ottawa about the scenerio.
I'm not sure we need the biggest badest clock with bells and whistles that nobody else has, but lets be honest, keeping time, managing penalties, keeping score is mandatory. Showing replays, kiss cams, player profiles, tv feeds and adverts is a nice thing to have. Having something that works is a must have for this event.
Make it happen!
Go Sens.
Kyle Okposo is not being shopped and I just don't seeing Murray getting Kyle Turris.
Some other players that Murray should think about trading should be for one of them or both should be TJ Galiardi and Brandon Yip.
edit:
found highlights of the game, you could see zib involved in the game several times http://www.elitserienplay.se/video.1290337670001#/video.1208084933001
If you are trying to offer something to the conversation, you need to do more than just throw names out there. Why don't you explain why you think Murray should trade for the players that you seem to pull out of a hat. (Andrew Ladd excluded) Who would we may have to move for them, what their role would be. Just trying to help SF19.
Wow, you couldnt be more in left field...The Sens lose money every year, they have to atleast make or pass the 2nd round to even break even. This drains Melnyk, sure he has deep pockets but losing upwards to 10 million a season is not what he envisions and one would think he's not in it to lose money. We have been saving on player salaries but its not enough to take us out of the red.
Like Chirp said, the scoreboard doesnt bring in any money, it only costs money, and alot of it. Money the team doesnt have.
Its an All-Star game, does time even matter, even the score doesnt matter, hell you could have a guy with a stopwatch doing it...
Melnyk bought the team including the building for a lowball price, and after 20 years, this scoreboard is an antique.
We need to update with "new scoreboard", and whether we lease or buy it, it has to be done soon !
Speaking to my accounting chum - the sens are making cut backs everywhere this year, short of making staff redundant that is.
Interestingly they (and i imagine every other team in the league) have formed a contingency budget based on a lock out happening after the CBA expires.
This is the real world and real money which colours hockey decisions (who to bring up from Bingo, waivers, buy-outs) every day
I believe he's looking for the ability to stop the puck that he misplaced whilst playing for Ottawa.
Good old Carks.. is anybody else kinda excited to see Big Country back in the line-up. He has a very limited skill set but he still brings a fair amount to the team.
If we have one veteran defenseman who Rundblad and Cowen should look up to, it should be Carkner. He may not be the best player but this guy doesn't take anything for granted like maybe Gonchar, Kuba and even Phillips may.
as mentioned elsewhere the sens give away more tickets than virtually every team in the league.
There are many teams in worse financial shape than our team !
Since Leclaire's contract expired with the Sens while he was injured according to the NHL/NHLPA agreement the Sens have to provide him rehab services until he's healthy or until another team signs him basically.
In 06-07 they finished 12th in the league in pgr.
In 07-08 they finished 7th.
In 09-10 they finished 10th.
I fail to see how they claim to "give tickets away" when in actuality their in the top portion of league earners.
there isn't a danger of the team going belly-up but we haven't made the 2nd round of the playoffs since 2007 and have therefore lost money every year since then
you also need to factor in that compared to Toronto and Montreal the Sens sell a lot less merchandising which makes a massive difference.
you don't have to take my word for it, but you should probably listen to Melnyk and Leeder when they discuss where the team ranks financially within the NHL and what needs to be done to make a profit. Melnyk isn't in this to solely make a profit but he IS a businessman and doesn't like throwing money away (despite how that looks with Kovalev and Gonchar).
You can't really compare Montreal and Toronto but I think on a league basis Ottawa's merch sales are quite strong. Add that to the Canadian dollar being worth double what it was then I have SOME difficulty understanding how the Sens are so poor.
I don't mean to sound argumentative, I've heard Melnyk say they need to make it to the second round as wll, but I think this is more of a play by Melnyk than actually a financial issue. He knew full well in '04 what he was getting into.
much for 3 guys, namely Heatley ($14 million for his last year with Ottawa) Kovalev $10 million for 2 years, and Gonchar $16.5 millionfor 3 years. Total of $40.5 million !!
This year's payroll to players is way below ($51 Million)
when salary cap is around $64 Million.
Melnyk is also still trying to recoup the $4 million bonus
paid to D. Heatley via the courts !
So I went to capgeek to check and see which contenders can keep most of their current teams intact, while being able to add Parise.
L.A., Vancouver, and Detroit could all fit him in under the cap without making any major moves. In fact, Detroit has over 20 million in cap space. I wouldn't be surprised to see Parise and one of Weber or Suter end up there next summer. That would be ridiculous.
They also shelled out too much money Fisher and Kuba as well, and to a much lesser extent, Spezza.
At the time, Spezza's contract seemed reasonable but today, not many players get signed for a cap hit of 7 million per. It's just not practical when trying to build a cup contender.
If you have 100 things to sell and only expect to sell 5 but actually sell 10, that can be spun to sound great - we sold double what we expected, but it still means that 90% were unsold.
The sens aren't poor and Melnyk has no intention on bailing, that needs to be understood, but they haven't made a profit on a fiscal year basis since 2007/08 and not all money that is made at SBP goes to the hockey team. We are in the middle of a worldwide recession and a little financial prudence makes a whole load of sense. For instance Filatov being in the AHL saves $4500 a DAY during the season.
Yeah, this is the new NHL, but having the toughest player/fighter on your team THAT CAN PLAY HOCKEY, it helps quite abit.
I have a feeling the fact they added the ability to pay over 12 months instead of 3 equal payments was a big reason why they had a jump in expected sales.. I know that was the reason I bought them this year and have a few friends who bought them because of that reason too....
Making money and losing money really has no direct correlation to cash inlays and cash outlays. Everything to do with the Senators has an appreciation value, which is then expensed off profit.
If the Senators net profit for the year is $10 million that is not a cash value by any means. First add back your appreciation value to get a more realistic number
Secondly, with bonuses and salary structure Melnyk must pony up large cash outlays at various times, where as his revenue is over a longer period of time (41 home games). So for him to just put up the large expense to get the scoreboard is not financially viable
Now if Melnyk can expense or figure out financing options, then that makes sense as revenue from ASG will come in AFTERWARDS. And he can then use that money to finance the board
very well said, we are more than lucky to have such a great owner, who cares about the team, success and the city.
And don't kid yourselves, he has accountants and financial advisors that assure he does not make too much money, and then have to pay it all back in taxes... this team is a successful financial investment for him
and there is also a difference between Melnyk's team of accountants and the CAs that work for the senators organisation.
And don't kid yourself that Melnyk is making money hand over fist from the Senators - he isn't.
Your right Snoopy but dont think we are not in the red and as a Canadian team, we are by far the worst financially.
^this^
He's been losing money since he arrived...1 or 2 deep playoffs dont make up for it.
Sensor, that was funny
He owns the senators because he loves hockey and he loves the city - we should all be thankful for that.
you are correct,
the Ottawa Senators business entity alone needs to make the 2nd round to make a profit.
Does this include parking, ads, concessions, capital, other venues... I think not
On Turris, I would imagine he is still available but if Maloney does not get his price it may not happen until the draft. Maloney might want to see if Turris is the elite talent they thought they were drafting & could convince him to stay if he is especially if he helps them win. However, my guess is that Turris wants out of Phoenix & will be dealt at either the trade deadline or the draft.
Melnyk has many differnent income sources and business entities, and he pays professionals to manage these.
Many sports teams "lose" money on paper, to off balance income from other areas, otherwise their profits would be lost to taxes.
It is easy to show losses on paper from sports teams, however most of the Millionaires would not be in it only for the love, if they were all losing millions, if so they would be investing in other areas, and buy a box to the games... IMO of course
He's been losing money since he arrived...1 or 2 deep playoffs dont make up for it.
I'm sorry tookie but your wrong again Melnyk was interviewed a few weeks ago and he said that when they don't make the playoff they break even and it's a bonus when they make it.
I'm sorry tookie but your wrong again Melnyk was interviewed a few weeks ago and he said that when they don't make the playoff they break even and it's a bonus when they make it.
That may be true given the current payroll, but i suspect Tookie was referring to all those years when they carried a much higher payroll. (He HAS been losing money...)
He can afford a new scoreboard regardless if he is making money or not. Expensing items are a process of owning a business.
Certainly he would rather expense (lease) the clock because that them affects his taxes in a good way. Outright buying it would require capital outlay up front and no tax benefit
Let them figure this out, i'm sure he knows what he is doing
Now let us go back to what we are good at..criticizing /praising murray and maclean
so I will start! Carkner is almost back, whos spot does he take on D, or do we put him up front and he becomes schubert or does he sit and be sent down
However the team is only in the red with a payroll close to max and not making the 2nd round of the playoffs. This year we are about 10-15mil below that, and we weren't losing 10-15mil a year just on the team.
I completely appreciate that the cost of a new scoreboard is a lot with little actual financial return, but to then tie this into the team as a whole not being financially profitable THIS year is too far of a stretch.
Also, wouldn't the scoreboard come from the building side and not the Sens side of the business? And if so, the building is profitable and a new scoreboard may expand the shows this building can host going forward.
I'm sorry tookie but your wrong again Melnyk was interviewed a few weeks ago and he said that when they don't make the playoff they break even and it's a bonus when they make it.
BTW our Sens under Jacques Martin (8 years), made the playoffs a total of 11 or 13 years, and since 2007 Cup Run
they have missed playoffs a few times.
To me they made more than they lost , the attendance is
steady, and we are not losing as much as it appears !
Team is now playing much better than expected, and fan support is up there !
I'd sit him until Kuba or Lee are traded, or even trade him along with 1 of those 2. I wouldn't send him down though, and if the trade isn't coming in the next week or two then try and get him a game here or there, but not as a forward as we are rolling 4 lines pretty well right now.
That may be true given the current payroll, but i suspect Tookie was referring to all those years when they carried a much higher payroll. (He HAS been losing money...)
I don't think that Melnyk can see the futur he was talking of the pass!
I agree to a certain extent but I think Carkner could provide this team with a great utility man. With Karlsson playing huge minutes Carkner would be the ideal 6th dman filling in for PK and shot blocking, and minimal even strength time
We should trade Lee, and have Carkner rotate with rundblad
IMO Lee will fetch more than kuba
BM and PM, have a serious "good" problem that needs to be dealt with.
They do have 8 healthy D right now, Carkner is ready they are trying to buy time.
Lee has shown he deserves to stay, Carkner has previosy proven he belongs, Rundblad needs to play.
we need to move 2 D plain and simple...who.
Also we now have a problem at forward, team is playing very well, on all 4 lines.
Neil is ready, who comes out? And who gets sent down, I do not feel at all that Daug should go to the A.
so then who?
Finally Regin is back in a few weeks, what then?
Here is my thoughts if rebuild
Put Kuba and Gonch plus one forward and see what interests are out there.
It is a good problem, but PM and BM need to make a decision on what is next
EEEEEEYORE !
Lee was waived last year and no one wanted him. I'm not saying no one wants him now, but the return is probably less then what we'd hope for. He's an unproven commodity. Kuba is proven and a veteran, and though I can't stand his style of play I actually think he could get us more.
I love Carkner's character and demeanor, but I can't stop thinking of all the times forwards would walk around him and Campoli had to catch up to them to save Carkner's ass. I don't think he has much of a role for us anymore with Smith, Konopka, Neil and Cowen on this team, and if he's to get any playtime ahead of Rundblad, they should just send Rundblad to the AHL to get big minutes.
Hopefully some sort of trade happens soon just to clear up the roster and everyone's roll on this team when it's healthy.
Man that's getting annoying!
I still think there is a market for lee out there, as an upcoming RFA i believe he should be a target by many due to his age and ability to make smart decisions. If I'm the sens I offer lee up to nashville (they will most likely lose one of weber and suter, and i think lee would fit their system perfectly)
Carkner does serve a role, and its not just toughness he is good at. our PK is better now, but it still struggles at moving bodies from the front of the net, and carkner would help. our d is not very physical with cowen the exception.
As an aside I posted a rather lengthy post on Yost's column yesterday regarding statistical breakdowns of our dmen using relative statistics (same handle alcatraz) take a look and you will see where we sit. Kuba has been our most reliable, and phillips is struggling again
I will not soon forget a radio show in MTL last year that was discussing possible rental players for the playoffs. Someone brought up Carkner as a means to toughen up. They all agreed the guyy wasn't an NHL defenseman and that if anyone should be taken from Ottawa, it should be Neil.
That sums up my thoughts on Carkner. Great story, great guy, mediocre defensive capability.
I respect your view as well, however Carkner's ability to move people from in front of the net, does not make up for his deficiencies elsewhere. It's like when we had Sutton and everyone was mesmerized by the big hits. These type of players offer grit and little else. Carkner would not be in my top 4 D for the PK out of this current group.
I'll try and find the stats you mention, sounds interesting. Just remember that this isn't baseball and the stats don't tell the full story in hockey. Kuba has looked like his old self, a decent Dman who would look good as some else's PP QB, we just have too many and he's too soft and flat footed.
Am I understanding correctly that your stats only took into account 5on5 and PK? If so do you find it to be biased against those that play a lot of PP time. It's like +/- category in that respect, as people who get a lot of their points on the PP instead of 5on5, often end up with lower stats in the +/- and 5on5 categories because of it.
All of you who remember how poorly he played last season, also try to remember how much better he was the previous season. He was hurt all last year, similar to Alfie. Remember how Alfie looked last year?
Right now , we need all the toughness we can find on the D, IMO.
But not at the expense of countless breakaways/odd man rushes against. That wasn't just last year. I like him as a 7th Dman though.
I think they keep Lee around for next year unless there is a team that REALLY wants him to be part of a trade.
Kuba won't be re-signed and they are doing all they can to move him, they just haven't had any takers yet.
Nobody in Bingo is going to seriously push anybody (MAYBE Lee) out of the top six next year. Boro, Wirecock and Gryba are call-up fodder who will have a much better chance at the roster in 2013/14.
The biggest challenge will be keeping all of Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, Lee and the Bingo guys around and happy until Gonchar and Phillips have moved on.
If I was one of those Bingo guys and I was told can you just hang around making 65,000 for another 2 or 3 years knowing that I had a better chance elsewhere I might start heading for the exit.
To answer that I checked the +/- per 60 min when playing on the ice 5v4
Sens leaders:
Michalek: +8.42
spezza: +8.4
d leaders:
Gonchar: +7.5
Karlsson: +6.54
Kuba: +4.93
**all other d equaled 0 (either havent been on ice for pp goal or a shg equaled their one ppg(rundblad)
**when rundblad is in lineup we use 4 dmen..when rundblad is not we only use 3 dmen
Now +/- per 60 sitting on the bench for 5v4 is almost just an inverse figure here as clearly our pp guys are a core group but...key findings:
Players on the ice for a ppg:
spezza/gonchar 11..karlsson michalek 10..greening 8..alfie 4..kuba 3..neil 2..lee/smith/fo ligno/runblad 1
So as many knew our pp only scores with our 1st unit on the ice. we could throw kenopka with carkner out there for all we care and we wont score unless its spezza/michalek and greening/alfie lol
I didnt want to do this to you...
As per Forbes
2000 = -2 Million
01 = -4M
02 = +2M
03 = -2M
Melnyk buys team
04 = -5M
05 = 0
06 = +4M
07 = +10M
08 = +5M
09 = -4M
10 = -10M
11 = projected -5M
So since 04, Melnyk has lost 5M.
I dont mind it, he makes himself less credible everytime he posts that nonsense. Not adding anything to the convo and the funniest part is my comment is fact...haha
As per Forbes
2000 = -2 Million
01 = -4M
02 = +2M
03 = -2M
Melnyk buys team
04 = -5M
05 = 0
06 = +4M
07 = +10M
08 = +5M
09 = -4M
10 = -10M
11 = projected -5M
So since 04, Melnyk has lost 5M.
Tookie, you are making two mistakes.
1- you're debating with someone who's only rebuttal is "EEEEEEYORE !
2- you're using facts to back up your argument.
How can he now walk into that dressing room and play. There has to be bad feelings there.
The Coyotes have been playing very well.... so who comes out of the lineup?
Maybe Tampa could use Kuba. Something is definitely wrong there. Did age catch up with Roloson? To lose 7-1 to Toronto with the talent on Tampa.. they only got 1 goal by Gustavsson? I'm sure Yzerman is looking to make a move..
Thanks Alcatraz, for these revealing numbers !
Very interesting stats. Thanks a lot for that extra PP analysis. I checked PP TOI to get a bit further of a picture. Our 2nd PP forward unit appears to play about half as much as the first PP forward unit. On D, Kuba and Rundblad by PP TOI are 3rd and 4th (almost same amount of time on the season) but play a quarter of the time Gonchar and Karlsson do.
So overall I think Gonchar and Karlsson are negatively affected the most by the 5on5 stats because of the amount of PP time and points they generate. Would be nice to have 2 full PP units though, no wonder Karlsson got to 30mins the other night.
agreed.
LOL.. Man are we ever in trouble if one of those guys (Michalek/Spezz a) gets hurt...
agreed to a certain degree. The quality of competion stat really shows maclean's coaching trends. Karlsson and Kuba play the top lines most nights (not phillips as many think) in fact phillips quality of competition stats are rather low, meaning he plays lots of 3rd lines.
The differential stats of on ice plus minus to off ice plus minus shows that Karlsson hurts us more sitting on the bench than being on the ice which I take as a much more valuable stat than simple +/- (5 on 5) so for those who say karlsson is -3 this year, that stat should read he is -3 but replace his ice time with any other dman, and the -3 turns into -10 or worse
I'm not a big stat guy, but that would be an interesting stat. Perhaps "Relative Plus-Minus? The difference between the individual's plus minus and the team's plus minus. Or, as you already pointed out, the difference in plus minus when a given indvidual is on the ice as opposed to when he is not.
Tookie, you are making two mistakes.
1- you're debating with someone who's only rebuttal is "EEEEEEYORE !
2- you're using facts to back up your argument.
So, in the 7 years he has owned the team, he only lost $5M,
which is not as bad as we thought.
Not making the playoffs in past 2 years, and getting eliminated in Round One in 09, has hit him hard !
Tookie you just proved the point your arguing against. If Melnyk has lost 5 mil total over that many seasons, and this year he's spending even less, he's in even better financial shape then many expected. Also 5mil CAN be made up by 1 deep playoff run.
Also, Forbes admits that their numbers are estimates and not 100% accurate. And it's not the fan's fault Melnyk has the building and the sens into 2 different companies, he did that because overall it presents as a better tax situation for himself.
The fact you are arguing he can't afford this is ludicrous! It's a big expense, but it's more then required at this point in time.
I hate to send you to a different blog, but I posted this yesterday, exactly what you have in mind. Id post this here but I don't have enough characters lol (3rd comment) If people are interested in a weekley stat post on this site perhaps chirp can bring me on board! hahahaha
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/boards/thread.php?thread_id=92671&forum_id=1
To summarize it all, it is better to make the playoffs, than to TANK, cause we make money to keep alive !!
It's an interesting discussion, but there is some merit to the idea that a slightly worse draft position can be "worth it" if the team makes more money in the playoffs. But I would suggest that Melnyk has deep enough pockets that if he felt missing the playoffs would make a significant difference in the team's development (with the earlier picks) then he'd be "okay" with missing the extra revenue. With the expectation of course that it would lead ultimately to deeper playoff runs and more of them down the road.
I'm of the opinion that if this team happens to make the playoffs it's a good thing if only because that would mean our young core must be really solid, but if we're talking strictly dollars and cents, I think a couple of long playoff runs are worth more than a bunch of first round exits.
On ice +/- of the team vs off ice +/- of the team (per 60 min)(player on ice vs on bench at 5 on 5)
On-ice:
Kuba: 0.50
Gonchar: -.2
Karlsson: -.3
Phillips: -.56
Cowen: -.88
Off-icE:
Cowen: -.34
Phillips: -.45
Gonchar: -.47
Karlsson: -.61
Kuba: -1.06
Differential:
Kuba: +1.56
Karlsson: +.31
Gonchar: +.27
Phillips: -.11
Cowen: -.54
So what does this say? Kuba postively affects our goals scored by 1.56 by being on the ice vs off it. In contrast Phillips and Cowen actually hurt us by being on the ice then off it
**all stats from 5 on 5 play**
I highly doubt they "forecast" a $5M loss when the season is 20 games in, I bet you just threw that number in there to try to prove a point.
I'm not arguing he cant, I was arguing he lost money since he arrived, which he has...
I agree 100% we need a new scoreboard. Its just not a necessity right now.
But Tookie,
Losing $5 M over 7 years, is equal to an average of $1.4 million/year, over that same period.
One good playoff run, and he is back to even or making small profit !
He is a smart operator, and makes a lot more on the SBP building, with all other steams of revenue.
That works short term Snoopy but in the long run you need to rebuild to get new star power or go bankrupt...
provide the forbes link and the "projected" $5 million shortfall.
Ya, I'm not sure why someone would think Phillips is our main defender this year against the top lines. Maclean definitely has found some interesting ways of rolling out his players that Clouston would never even attempt.
I'm personally not a fan of the stat about when players are sitting vs on ice, because situational play and the level of his team's forwards on the ice while that Dman is on the ice isn't taken into account. So the fact Karlsson plays more with the 1st line and Spezza, which in turn gives him a better chance to produce and get assists, isn't really an even point of comparison to someone like Phillips who does not get those chances in terms of their value to the team, but I definitely agree that Kuba and Karlsson have been 2 of our best Dmen so far this year.
Purely my opinion on that stat though and I still enjoy reading about it and seeing how each player performs in each stat category. Thanks again!
Of course they can, its and indication of how thngs will pan out. Down-10M and being projected to be a -5M by years end is a gain...
Somewhat agree with you on that, but so far we are doing much better than expected, with players on the ice, and we did get from the Toronto game, to now ,7 points out of a possible 8 points I believe.
this is professional sports, there is no fixed season length and a ton of variables. this isnt a car dealership. the sens can theoretically play 14 playoff games this season and sell out every single game for the rest of the season. You just made that last figure up to support your assertions.
Also heard that the Tampa Lightning are need of a good defencemen and Yzerman might be looking for a defencemen so does anybody think that the lightning would be a good trading partner with the Senators?
Does a cut of this game go to the NHL or does Melnyk get it all?
Sorry if I misunderstand your stance. I think it's too bad we spend so much time talking about this scoreboard, as it'll either happen just before the ASG, or in the future, either way I can live with it as long as the games continue to be fun to watch.
I was at that same game, and remember that - it was bad enough that I'd say it actually took away from the experience. Though if the announcer would have just shut up it would have been better
The last trade with the Lightning we gave them Meszaros and they gave us Kuba and Picard. I'm pretty sure neither side ever wants to speak to the other again.
Here is the other key stat then (great synergy btw!)
Refering to only 5on5 stats
Our defense quality of competition is:
Karlson=0.108
Kuba=0.096
Gonchar= 0.076
Phillips= 0.065
Cowen= -0.042
*rundblad and lee didn't make my qualifier of 20gp*
*Our top forward are Daug (.254) Michalek(.129) smith(.120)cond ra(.116) greening (.102) spezza (.097)
So this shows our top pairing (K&K) is playing with lines 1&3. 2nd pairing (P&G) is playing with lines 1&2 and third pairing (C&L&R) are playing with lines 2&4
Now on the Pk here is quality of competition
Kuba= 0.98
Cowen= 0.943
Phillips= 0.487
Karlsson= 0.216
Gonchar= 0.211
So obv 1st pair 2nd pair
Michalek is a staggering 1.657
hey maybe that's what happened. We OWNED those bluejackets.
I don't think that Melnyk can see the futur he was talking of the pass!
Sorry i was wrong he was talking about this season!
Out curiosity is the quality of competition based on the points the players against have put up this year, or what line they are on, or even TOI?
Being among the most “effectively productive” requires both cost frugality as well as enough on-ice competence to reach the postseason. Whereas the least “effectively productive” teams were neither frugal nor competent enough to be playing into April.
Most “Effectively Productive” NHL Teams
Rank Team Cost/Win Efficiency Ratio
1 Phoenix $1,047,455 78%
2 Nashville $1,190,343 88%
3 Anaheim $1,200,323 89%
4 Tampa $1,208,485 90%
5 Los Angeles $1,283,245 95%
Least “Effectively Productive” NHL Teams
Rank Team Cost/Win Efficiency Ratio
1 Edmonton $1,903,148 141%
2 New Jersey $1,632,543 121%
3 Ottawa $1,607,162 119%
4 Minnesota $1,570,186 117%
5 Columbus $1,502,593 111%
Sens Ranked #2
Quality of Competition is defined as:
Average Relative Plus-Minus of opposing players, weighted by head-to-head ice time.
BTW I should give credit where credit is due. I get my stats from behindthenet.ca
So again it is an advanced statistic that still has some variable issues such as for example right now Anaheim's big line is struggling and isnt doing well with +/- so they may not affect this stat too much in a positive way
But it is the clearest and best way to examine who is being paired up against which lines etc
Relative +/- adjusts a player's on-ice +/- relative to his team's +/- while he was off the ice. In general, it corrects for the boost players get from playing on a good offensive team and vice-versa.
to show its worth, league leaders in 2007 for quality of competition was the moen-pahlsson-n iedermayer line, which we all know how well they did against top lines :(
Dont know about this but I think Melnyk wont get much as the City is the one winning here. I think it will actually cost Melnyk some $$$ to prepare for the ASG.
Very cool, thanks a lot! Coach definitely seems to trust Kuba more then the fans ;)
Id say so! btw league leaders is the bickell-bolland -frolik line for chicago at qual of comp 0.3
playing a min 10gp daug is actually 4th in the league
Out of all dmen karlsson ranks 16th and kuba 25th, which is pretty impressive on Kuba's part
Anything that increases Kuba's trade value can only be seen as a positive!
Dont account for what you dont know, thats accounting 101. Also dont account for the insane....
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/hockey-valuations-10_Ottawa-Senators_318444.html
He's willing to spend big (contracts for Kovalev, Gonchar, Heatley, Spezza) when he thinks we have a real chance of going deep in the playoffs but will try and cut costs (not buying out players) during years when we don't expect to, since he took over ownership this is probably the first year when HE didn't think we were a playoff team.
I'm confident that we are financially viable as an organisation but it doesn't make sense to spend big this year or possibly next.
Melnyk gets his rocks off big time strutting himself as the ultimate hockey fan and owner, as he should. Great example of this was at the World Juniors.
He wants this, he knows we want it and he wants to look like the bigshot he is and talk about how wonderful the ASG weekend is for Ottawa and for fans of his franchise... I would be shocked beyond belief if we don't have something new in place for the big weekend.
He is a smart marketer and shrewd businessman. The strategy to sell seats so far this season has been new coach, great goalie, youth resurgence message that has been wonderfully padded by unexpected success for the team so far.
Post Christmas will be even more ASG focus, a wonderful new scoreboard and one of the following two deadline scenarios depending how things unfold:
a - rebuildmania part deux - veterans for picks
b - be a buyer, make a run
I don't claim to understand the numbers but if that Forbes link is where the info comes from, I don't see a 10M operating loss for 2010, I see -4M, so even if we accept a projected 2011 loss of 5M (which I also don't see there) that works out to a *gain* of $1M since Melnyk bought the club.
What am I missing?
@ RUSHRLZ,
If we play in next 61 games, at same or better level,we will see a & b come to fruition !
Do you mean A this year and B the next?
Hell no, both this year !!
GO SENS GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, I'm confused too, and I know I will regret asking, but, how do you expect them to do both?
Gah, your right, I misread, *blames the smallish writing*
And Melnyk was on the books for the -2M in 03 aswell. So that would make it -1M pending this year...
Now that doesn't mean we won't make "good hockey trades" at any time, but if we have a label at the deadline it HAS to be "seller".
We can also be a seller of our expiring Veterans (Kuba, Carkner, Winchester, Konopka, Auld). Maybe even Regin as an expiring RFA (or Foligno, Da Costa expiring RFAs too).
@ BOOM,
Notice that I said "if", in the statement of the remaining 61 games. Now, should they fall apart, then all of this also falls apart.
Do not know, who the veterans to be traded will be, but some will be gone at trade deadline, and not necessarily for picks, but maybe current players of other teams.
We seem to have enough prospects in the system, thus no need for future picks.
I'm dreaming, but it could happen !!
Exactly... it's all still about the re-build... be sellers at the deadline for more picks... going to be a talented draft..
The up coming draft in the new year is much much better then last years if you are a rebuilding team this years up coming draft and the one after 2013 draft are suspose to be really good drafts.
The ones to watch in 2013 are Nathan MacKinnon and mostly likely 67's -- Sean Monahan... Pick him up to play with Prince...
The term "buyer" implies giving up picks/prospects for established players. So there's no such thing as a "buyer of prospects". But essentially yes that's what Bryan Murray should be looking to do - improve our pool of picks/prospects . Either by moving out expiring contracts or guys that don't fit our long term plans for picks/prospects or by "trading up" if we find a team that has interest in one of our younger guys and is offering a guy we like better or who fits our plans better. i.e. if someone asks for Lee and is willing to offer a forward prospect we like.
Sorry Hax, but I've never seen the term buyer defined that way to exclude so many other trade types. I appreciate that you define it that way for yourself, but there's no way that's a universal acceptance of the word buyer. At most it's a team trying to make an immediate improvement. If we trade for a better prospect/player then the ones we are giving up that's still buying as far as I'm concerned.
Hey I could be the only one - but every context I've ever seen that term used was when a team was "selling" future to "buy" for the present. I don't know of many trades where we just trade "ok" prospects for "great" ones.
Anyway, we agree (I think) on philosophy in general - that Murray should be planning for the long term first and the present second. Any trade we make needs to be to make us better in 2-3 years (which would include getting a young who helps us now since that same guy would still be helping us in 2-3 years).
@ ShawnK
I think he was found guilty on some counts, and was fined at least $1 Million and prohibited from trading on market.
Ride our Da Costa until Regin comes back.
Was kind of hoping that the Pens would blow out this game like they did against the Isles....only to make them cocky and arrogant as hell come Friday. Figured if they walked into the rink with there noses way up in the air that our boys would take advantage of the distraction and make a game out of it.
meh
Sens article
I must assume you got this from the following site:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/31/hockey-values-09_Ottawa-Senators_318444.html
I must also assume you have no idea what any of that means other than the fact that there's a little explanation for graph #5 on Operating Income.
I must therefore conclude that you do not realize Operating Income is just that. The net difference of Operating Revenue minus Operating Expenses.
[Cont...]
Never in any of the graphs does it mention Non-Operating Income and Investments. Never in any of the graphs and explanation does it talk about EBITDAR of Capital Sports Management Inc.
Granted, many sports team as a standalone lose money. That's a given with such high overhead costs and minimal revenue generation. Unless Eugene starts disclosing his full books and his Investments with the money he collects as well as his debt... no one, and I mean NO ONE can state whether he's making any money or not and therefore NO ONE can say the team is in financial trouble because for all you know or may not know, he can be capital injecting funds in to the team and crossing it out in the books as it's simply a intra-group transfer.
Know your sh*t before talking please or better just stay quiet and keep it to just hockey.
ottawa doesnt have a lucrative tv contract that a couple other teams have that increase their profits, or another pro sports franchise to play in the arena and thats just the ottawa senators, melnyk has his other business were he made all his money, no? i dont see were you got your projected -5 mill projection in 2011 (leave a website or something everyone could see it) im sure you left out some details under your bias lol
LOL thanks for proving my point.
Wow.. How original..