Saturday, 06 August 2011 14:21

The Search Continues- Round 2

Apologies for the delay in getting this piece up.

Last week, we saw one of the three finalists take a creative approach to the subject of the Sens rebuild in an article that caused plenty of discussion in the comment section.  Today we have something a little different.  This article takes a more analytical approach in assessing the potential of Robin Lehner.

I'm expecting the final article in the series to be submitted at some point on Monday so keep an eye out for that.  Here is the second submission in the SensChirp Search.

“With the 46th Overall pick in the 2009 Entry Draft, the Ottawa Senators select Robin Lehner”. And with those words every Sens fan finally had the name of the next franchise goaltender, but truth be told if he is successful he will actually be the 1st.

It is often said that goaltenders are the hardest prospects to judge. They regularly take well into their mid to late 20s to show their true colours and become NHL ready due to the technical skill level and mental fortitude required to move past the last goal or blowout. A goalie’s memory must be short, but his resolve can have no end. I believe it is the hardest position in all professional sports and rarely do they get the credit they deserve.

This past year, however, after one of the more difficult rookie year schedules, Robin Lehner was able to overcome a bench role in the AHL and bring the Binghamton Senators back from the brink of elimination all the way to winning a Calder Cup Championship. For all his hard work and stellar performances Lehner was recognized as the Calder Cup MVP, receiving the Jack A Butterfield Trophy (JAB), and also became just the 4th teenaged goaltender to win a Calder Cup (Gordie Bell – 1943, Patrick Roy – 1986, Carey Price – 2007).

Lehner joins a long line of goaltenders who received the JAB, first awarded in 1983-84, and this point is often used when fans and analysts make “franchise goaltender” claims. Out of the 28 years this award has been handed out, it has gone to the goaltender of the winning team 15 times, including 1994-95 where Corey Schwab & Mike Dunham shared co-MVP honours. In Part 1 of this series we will review previous winners of the award and use their career stats and success, or lack thereof, to help better predict where Lehner ranks and where he is headed in his career.

The story lines of past winners are almost as numerous as the number of winners themselves. Immediately it is easy to remove all those who won the JAB late in their careers (Sam St. Laurent, Allan Bester, Wade Flaherty & Frederic Cassivi) as their wins were in part due to their level of experience and had little to do with their future potential towards an NHL career.

The second group of past MVPs to remove are those that had brief careers with below acceptable results at the AHL & NHL levels. Wendell Young played parts of 5 seasons in the AHL, and several more in the NHL, but consistently produced poor results ending in career GAAs of 3.46 and 3.94 in the AHL and NHL respectively. Lehner has shown he can currently beat these numbers, even if the sample size has been small to date. Kay Whitmore also had very forgettable numbers both at the AHL and NHL levels, though his career was a bit longer in the AHL. His MVP season (3.07 GAA) was clearly an anomaly when compared to the rest of his AHL career numbers (3.43 GAA), which have been lowered thanks to 4 good seasons at the end of his AHL career. Lehner is unlikely to regress to the level needed to match the career stats of these goalies, especially given he is still improving.

Of the remaining goalies several made a mark at the NHL level without creating a permanent home for themselves, or succumbed to injury early in their careers. This includes the likes of Corey Schwab, Pasi Nurminen and Johan Holmqvist. Schwab was a career backup who got an extended look in the NHL throughout his prime years, but was never quite able to take the reins and eventually retired due to injury. He won the co-MVP honours in his 4th AHL season and was later fortunate enough to win the Stanley cup in 2003 with the Devils. It would be easy to say that Schwab's situation with being a 10th round pick and a co-MVP does not equate to Lehner's, however if it wasn't for his career ending injury, he had finally become a reliable backup goaltender in his early 30s. If he is the worst case scenario for Lehner, it would still be a disappointment, but it cannot be ignored that he would still provide value as a solid NHL backup.

Pasi Nurminen (189th overall in 2001 by the Atlanta) was a diamond in the rough that appeared destined for good things at the NHL level. He won the JAB in his 1st and only AHL season before a promising beginning to his NHL career as a starter for Atlanta. During the lockout he played in Finland and Sweden, but unfortunately upon the NHL’s return to action he was forced to retire due to a serious knee injury. His career was over way too early and left several fans wondering 'what if'. Pasi Nurminen provided very good numbers in his brief career and, much like Lehner, his value to his organization was apparent immediately.

Aside from 2 seasons (06-07 & 07-08) where he started a bit more than half of Tampa Bay’s games, and a few emergency call-ups here and there prior and after, Johan Holmqvist (175th overall in 1997 by NYR) was a career backup/minor leaguer. He won the MVP award in his 3rd AHL season and is now playing for Frolunda HC in the SEL.

Two others, Neuvirth (34th overall by Washington) and Price (5th overall by Montreal), are still too early in their careers to be used as measuring sticks, especially since the latter had a lot more hype and success prior to reaching the NHL. Carey Price, like Lehner, took over the starting role late in his MVP winning AHL season, after being brought up following the completion of the WHL season. This made him the only goaltender in history to win the JAB and play in juniors in the same year, where he was the CHL goaltender of the year and also the World Junior Championship’s tournament MVP. His career is still in the early stages, at age 23, but he is not only the future for Montreal but may also be the future for Team Canada. Neuvirth, on the other hand, is a native of the Czech Republic who began his North American career by coming over for 2 years in the OHL. Michal Neuvirth led the Hershey Bears of the AHL in back to back Calder Cup Championships, despite also spending some time in the NHL during both seasons as an injury replacement. He won the JAB in his 1st AHL season, and won the starting job in Washington in 2010. Now relegated to backup with the acquisition of Vokoun, this 23 year old still has the opportunity for a very long NHL career and could possibly regain the throne after this coming season. Neuvirth holds the Calder Cup single playoffs GAA record at 1.92.

Antero Niittymaki (168th overall by Philadelphia) stands in a category of his own. He entered the league with much lower expectations, however has carved quite the niche for himself and continues to prove doubters wrong. Niittymaki won the MVP honours in his 3rd and final AHL season and is best described as an expected career backup who keeps taking over the starting job. He is considered a 1B/2A type of goalie with decent overall numbers but very inconsistent game to game performances. In 2006 he was voted the MVP of the Winter Olympic tournament when he led Finland to a silver medal after filling in for the injured Lehtonen and Kiprusoff. No Sens fan would be excited to have the next Niittymaki, but statistically speaking it is a possibility.

The final group of 3 are Mike Dunham (53rd overall in 1990 by New Jersey), Olaf Kolzig (19th overall in 1989 by Washington) and Jeff Hackett (34th overall in 1987 by NYI) who all had long NHL careers. Dunham, the other, some would say better, half of the 94-95 co-MVP, is obviously the weak link of this group never having had a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. His career numbers would still be considered starter worthy by today's standards, especially since they were mainly earned on a weak Predators team. Dunham also helped the USA win a silver medal in the 2002 Winter Olympics.

Hackett rendered the success of his 2nd AHL season into an immediate career in the NHL the following year. In 97-98 he finally received the full #1 job in Chicago, followed by 2 more quality seasons in Montreal before succumbing to injury issues. He is currently the 2nd most successful NHL goaltender in this list. At a slightly older age than Lehner, Jeff Hackett produced worse AHL numbers. His NHL numbers are actually almost 1 full goal against per game better than those he had in the AHL. Due to this I would consider him a bad comparison for Lehner, though it is possible that their NHL careers could be similar.

Finally, Olaf Kolzig is THE gold standard on this list. With a 3.43 career GAA in the AHL, Kolzig put his time and work in to better himself and earn the long and productive career he had in the NHL, almost exclusively with Washington. Despite being born in South Africa and living in Canada for a significant portion of his life, he retained his parents’ German citizenship and was able to represent the German National team in several international events. Though he won the award in his 4th AHL season, it became the springboard for his NHL career. He had played 8 NHL games prior to the championship, but appeared in only 7 more AHL games after that season when he became the backup to Jim Carey and then Bill Ranford. He was then rewarded with the full time starter’s job until he was traded in 2008. A lot of us may remember the final years of his career where his numbers became inflated due to the poor team iced in front of him, but over the entirety of his career he was an exemplary franchise goalie, winning the Vezina Trophy and being named to the NHL First All-Star Team in 2000. Away from the rink Kolzig was also a pillar of his community and was rewarded for his work with the King Clancy Memorial Trophy in 2006. Already there seems to be a less than 50% chance that Lehner plays 3 more years in the AHL, however we would all be fortunate to have a goaltender in the system that can attain this level.

In the end, when compared to previous AHL Calder Cup MVPs, Lehner appears to match best with Mike Dunham, Pasi Nurminen and Antero Niittymaki, with a best case of becoming Olaf Kolzig/Carey Price and a worst case of being a career backup like Corey Schwab, which is overly pessimistic when the stats and story are reviewed in detail. The similarity in career paths should eventually make the comparison between Neuvirth and Lehner not only the most relevant, but it has a good chance of becoming a long standing rivalry throughout their careers.

It is clear Robin Lehner will start the season as Binghamton’s #1 goaltender, and from there we know that he will make his mark in the NHL. One day soon the fans will chant his name in glory! Welcome to our goaltender of the future, he has already cemented his place among the Calder Cup MVPs, now it's time to see if he can become the first to ever provide a repeat performance! GO B-Sens GO!

Last modified on Saturday, 06 August 2011 14:34

Comments   Jump to Last Post

 
-1 #1 stevrock 2011-08-06 14:52
I liked it more than the first article of the second round.
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+5 #2 dbakes 2011-08-06 15:43
I found this article very long and boring. If you're going to have an entire article dedicated to looking at stats, then at least put those stats into a quick reference table.
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+2 #3 SensChirp 2011-08-06 15:51
Quoting dbakes:
I found this article very long and boring. If you're going to have an entire article dedicated to looking at stats, then at least put those stats into a quick reference table.

I'll take the blame on that. The initial submission had those tables but we had some trouble posting them in the proper format.
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-1 #4 T K 2011-08-06 16:33
Despite it's length, I found it interesting. Top of my list so far.
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0 #5 The Apostle 2011-08-06 16:44
well written, obviously very well researched and really dull.

i much prefer opinion pieces - it's difficult to disagree and argue with facts and disagreements are what comment boards like this thrive on

i think there should be room made for more than one guest contributor - then the stats junkies can get their fix and the others can have something argumentative to ge their teeth into
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+2 #6 Round Leaf 2011-08-06 16:44
not a big fan... the comparisons, although interesting, have no real significance because they're based around such a small sample size. Some goalies just catch lightning in a bottle, but it gives no indication on how the rest of his career will be.
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+1 #7 DenisVial 2011-08-06 18:21
[quote "The Apostle"]well written, obviously very well researched and really dull.

I agree. I'm a stats geek and they just don't translate in to an interesting read. Good effort but I prefer opinion pieces as well.
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+1 #8 Floridasensfan 2011-08-06 18:50
lots of research and time put into this piece.

hard to compare Lehner with other goalies that won the MVP and the Calder.

All I know is he can be a stand on his head goalie and win games just like Anderson.
When we make the playoffs the Anderson Lehner tandem is going to be sick.

A bit more AHL time and confidence.

Not something a sens fans have had before, sure we have had one great goalie but not two.

Stanley is going to be in Ottawa in the not too distant future.
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+2 #9 T K 2011-08-06 18:59
Quoting Floridasensfan:


Stanley is going to be in Ottawa in the not too distant future.


He's here today... with Claude Julien...
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+1 #10 sbs138 2011-08-06 19:02
too long...and boring.
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0 #11 jakester 2011-08-06 19:05
It was good I enjoyed it.
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+1 #12 NotMatt101 2011-08-06 20:11
I started to skim. Was obviously well researched and written but was way too dry. Not my cup of tea but good job cause im sure it was a time consuming piece to write
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-10 #13 sben 2011-08-06 21:17
i just was to bored to continue reading more than half way through bad subject badly written just really bad good first article garbage second article i'm sorry but I'm being honest
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+2 #14 EH_Matt 2011-08-06 21:55
I think this one was a little too long and focussed too much on Lehner. If the topic was meant to be about Binghamton, I think this writer totally missed it on this topic. Out of the 2 so far I think I'd prefer the first article. I hope the next article can wow us a bit more because the first 2 have only been ok.
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0 #15 Sensnation 2011-08-06 22:17
Quoting Round Leaf:
not a big fan... the comparisons, although interesting, have no real significance because they're based around such a small sample size. Some goalies just catch lightning in a bottle, but it gives no indication on how the rest of his career will be.


In 28 years of the trophy, any goalies that "caught lightning in a bottle" were included. So if Lehner becomes one of them, you still have a baseline to compare him to. Based on past winners, they become at least NHL worthy, and likely better than that. Also, if he were to win a 2nd time, he'd instantly be in a class of his own, literally. I think that's a decent baseline either way and very applicable. I think you are underestimating the class of goalies he is now a part of, the AHL is still a very competitive league.
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+2 #16 conor smythe 2011-08-06 22:39
based on what he has done so far, and when compared with other goalies who have accomplished the same, I think Robyn Lehner will either be:

1. Good
2. Average
3. Bad

THERE I just saved you 10 minutes.
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+1 #17 Round Leaf 2011-08-06 22:46
Quoting JABSmilez:

I think you are underestimating the class of goalies he is now a part of.


I don't doubt the kid's talent or ability. I was just pointing out that the sample size of goalies that have done this (and games played in the AHL playoffs) is so small that it really doesn't tell us anything about where Robin is going with his career. I think it would have been better if you had stuck with just citing the other goalies who have done this and saying what they accomplished in the NHL rather than saying that the numbers indicate he's most comparable to so on...
Its not like every goalie who's done this is in the Hall of Fame. The range of goalies you cite include both career AHLers and 4-time Stanley cup winners. Even without numbers that doesn't tell us much.
Its like if I say that I know with 100% confidence that Spezza will score somewhere between 0 and 100 goals next year.
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0 #18 Round Leaf 2011-08-06 22:48
For the record I love Lehner's play and can't wait to see him in Ottawa.
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+1 #19 Sensnation 2011-08-06 22:52
Thank you very much for the support and feedback. With all the talk about whether or not it's too early to make big projections for Lehner and a request for stats, I thought it a great opportunity to really look at the class of previous AHL goalies he is now a part of. I think this shows he will be a quality starting goalie in the NHL and in the end the best 4 on this list should be Kolzig, Price, Lehner and Neuvirth. Who do you guys think will be the top 4 in the end?
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+1 #20 Sensnation 2011-08-06 22:57
Quoting Round Leaf:
...
Its not like every goalie who's done this is in the Hall of Fame. The range of goalies you cite include both career AHLers and 4-time Stanley cup winners. Even without numbers that doesn't tell us much.
Its like if I say that I know with 100% confidence that Spezza will score somewhere between 0 and 100 goals next year.


I think the ones he compared to best were the higher end ones, the ones that had memorable NHL careers, save the 1 standout who retired very early due to injury. These were starting caliber goalies that helped lead their teams!
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+1 #21 Sensnation 2011-08-06 23:30
Quoting conor smythe:
based on what he has done so far, and when compared with other goalies who have accomplished the same, I think Robyn Lehner will either be:

1. Good
2. Average
3. Bad


Thank you for the constructive criticism. I tried to show that he was better than over 60% of previous winners, would have a long enough starting career to have a rivalry with Neuvirth and could become the 1st repeat winner. I think this makes the window much smaller than that, but I will definitely ensure to improve the clarity in the future.
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+1 #22 NickG 2011-08-07 03:03
For what it's worth, Team Spezza beat Team Schenn in the Mentorship Camp

9-9 Regulation (we tied it up with 8.7 seconds left in the 3rd)
3-0 Shootout (amazing 3rd goal too)
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0 #23 WantEggRoll 2011-08-07 04:55
Quoting NickG:
For what it's worth, Team Spezza beat Team Schenn in the Mentorship Camp

9-9 Regulation (we tied it up with 8.7 seconds left in the 3rd)
3-0 Shootout (amazing 3rd goal too)



Spezza's face as his team poured onto the ice thinking they won with team Schenn still having one shooter left was pretty funny.
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0 #24 Sandy 2011-08-07 12:20
The shootout was a 5 player shootout... the guys thought it was 3. Those young kids have some talent... especially Point. Only 5'6" -- he has some really good moves.

As for the article..not too bad. It's going to be tough choosing this round.

As for Lehner... he did not have a good regular season. He sat in Ottawa for a month due to Visa issues. When he did get in Bingo sat on the bench. He played in 22 games in the AHL but took a while to get going.
He went into the playoff games with a lot of pressure since Bingo was down 3 games to 1. He won 3 straight overtime games... including stopping a penalty shot in one of those overtimes. He had a great playoff run. That's not easy to do for a 19 yr old rookie.
This season will probably help determine when he is NHL ready and what he can do over a long season.
Go show 'em Robin.
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0 #25 Lambchops 2011-08-07 12:22
Lost intrest after the third paragraph. It was boring and long. It could have been good it wa a good premis but out was really boring
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0 #26 stevrock 2011-08-07 12:40
What day from the first round was this Chirp?
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-4 #27 Spezzafan19 2011-08-07 12:45
I know I am going to get grilled for this but I am going to still post this.

Seeing how Trent Hunter is a free agent should Murray offer Trent Hunter a training camp invite?
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+1 #28 NotwinninforM­acKinnon 2011-08-07 13:44
Mark Stone scored twice and added an assist in the Red v White game at Canada's WJC summer evaluation camp.
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0 #29 SensChirp 2011-08-07 15:16
Quoting stevrock:
What day from the first round was this Chirp?

Day 5
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+3 #30 Lambchops 2011-08-07 16:57
A judge ask a child during a divorce. he says do you want to live with your mother?
Oh no the child says she slaps me and calls me names.
Well your father then the judge says.
Oh no he is much worse than my mother.
Well where do you want to live the judge asks.
With the Toronto Maple Leafs replied the child.
Why the maple leafs he says.
Because the child says, they never beat anyone.
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-1 #31 gcjager 2011-08-07 20:08
Quoting conor smythe:
based on what he has done so far, and when compared with other goalies who have accomplished the same, I think Robyn Lehner will either be:

1. Good
2. Average
3. Bad

THERE I just saved you 10 minutes.


that's any prediction though man. Let's see your take on the future.
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+1 #32 gcjager 2011-08-07 20:13
Good article. It wasn't long or boring. Informative of the class he sits in and perhaps his potential. Obviously we weren't asking the author to dip into his expensive tea leaf supply. We as fans can only hope for the best and these comparisons at least give us a chance to see what others who have accomplished the same have gone on to do. Thanks!!
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+2 #33 Andrews Theory 2011-08-07 21:25
glad I read the article.

I think if you wanted to improve on it, you'd have clearly stated what you think he'll develop into and then make a case using the stats you cited.

ultimately the point of the blogger is to spark discussion. this one kinda just walked the line...lots of information but nothing for anyone to say they agree or disagree...
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0 #34 meadowdog 2011-08-07 21:43
Clearly much effort went into this submission. I appreciate that and feel that it was not without merit but I tend to agree with Andrews Theory that a strongly stated conclusion based on the research would have enhanced the reading experience. I still feel that both entries have been strong and I don't see a clear favorite.
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0 #35 DarcyLoewen 2011-08-07 22:44
This article has come closest to what I'd like to read from a contributor from what we've seen to date.

Solid analysis of stats and facts, but that final leap to support 1 conclusion or another was lacking. Also, if this was supposed to be the topic of 'The Changes in Binghamtom' the author majorly missed the mark.

As far as the writing itself - it was well done

I'd give it a 7.5/10
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+7 #36 dzc 2011-08-07 22:47
You guys are pretty tough to please. I thought this was by far the best article posted to date. Really enjoyed reading about other AHL MVP goalies and how their careers have fared. This was well-researched , well-structured , and generally well-written. All of the other articles were basically like reading the comments section. This is the winner as far as I'm concerned.
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0 #37 SENSational 2011-08-08 03:48
On another note, Mark Stone played amazingly well at the world juniors evaluation camp. The Johansson-Hubur deau-Stone line was the top line their. If he turns out to be a 30 goal scorer Murray will look like a genius. Let's hope Peumpel, Noesen and Zibinjad can impress as well. Would be great if they all make their respective national teams.
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-1 #38 Andrews Theory 2011-08-08 07:34
i find it hard to believe Stone will be playing on Canadas top line and wont eventually transition to the nhl as at least a third liner...

look at the history of the team. most of the players go on to have established nhl careers....
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0 #39 Johne 2011-08-08 08:03
http://twitter.com/dchesnokov - Kovalev to SovSport: "In two season w/the #Sens I still couldn't get Clouston's game plan. It appeared he scoffed at some players."
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0 #40 SensChirp 2011-08-08 08:05
Going to leave this article up for a little bit to allow a little more discussion. I know a lot of people don't check the site on the weekend so I want to make sure everyone has a chance to check this one out before I post the final article.
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+1 #41 SensChirp 2011-08-08 08:06
Quoting Johne:
http://twitter.com/dchesnokov - Kovalev to SovSport: "In two season w/the #Sens I still couldn't get Clouston's game plan. It appeared he scoffed at some players."

Definitely not the first time we've heard this about Clouston. Should be interesting to see if Kovalev stops there or if he has more to say.
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0 #42 Johne 2011-08-08 08:10
Quoting SensChirp:
Going to leave this article up for a little bit to allow a little more discussion. I know a lot of people don't check the site on the weekend so I want to make sure everyone has a chance to check this one out before I post the final article.


Ty, I'll be reading it after/during a conference call I have coming up, was hoping I didn't miss out on the 2nd article.
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+1 #43 Blake Ryan 2011-08-08 08:18
Good article, interesting read. Very insightful. Jabs for mayor.
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+3 #44 Blake Ryan 2011-08-08 08:23
Quoting SensChirp:
Quoting Johne:
http://twitter.com/dchesnokov - Kovalev to SovSport: "In two season w/the #Sens I still couldn't get Clouston's game plan. It appeared he scoffed at some players."

Definitely not the first time we've heard this about Clouston. Should be interesting to see if Kovalev stops there or if he has more to say.


hahaha i don't know whether this makes clouston look worse, or Kovie. Regardless of how poorly communicated the plan was - I guarantee mindlessly drifting around the ice was NOT part of it... what a pair these two were, happy they are both gone.
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+1 #45 Johne 2011-08-08 08:41
I guess this is JABS entry based on the comment above? Don't take this criticism to heart. It's just me being honest.

Either its Monday morning and I have zero focus or the article was really long and hard to read. A whole lot was said without really saying anything. The stats were eye opening, fresh and very interesting, but the presentation lost me.

Sure I like an article that has some flow, but this was just too much for my brain this morning. I'd like to see less fluff and getting straight to the point. The research was excellent because most of the points and goaltenders mentioned, I had not heard of. I think I understand where the author was going with this article, trying to please readers based off of all the feedback from last week's first round. So while the information was excellent, there was way too much fluff in the article, I give it a solid C.

Day 1 was better.
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+1 #46 RUSHRLZ 2011-08-08 09:47
I thought this was another solid entry and you can tell the author put a lot of work and research into it.

At the end though it didn't seem very fluidly pieced together, it was almost as though there was so much meat from a stats perspective that is became a bit of a disjointed story.

Solid effort no doubt, but I still prefer the first entry of this round.
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+5 #47 Kogs 2011-08-08 10:10
Long article but I wouldn't say it is a boring one. Definitely learned some things that I hadn't known about other AHL/Calder Cup goalie MVPs.

Tough to please everyone with these articles, a lot of people were asking for more of a stats based approach to the entries and when you give it to them they find it long with nothing to comment about (sort of true) - there definitely needs to be a good middle ground of stats/facts and opinion.

Obviously a lot of time went into this article and I'm sure that everyone who took the time to read it learnt a few things.
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+1 #48 Alcatraz 2011-08-08 10:23
What I am looking for is an opinion BASED upon stats.

so for example say "I believe Lehner will be a franchise goalie to the mold of Kolzig because x y and z proves it"

then we can all jump in and say well reason x is misleading and reason y is biased therefore using your research I think Lehenr will be in the mold of hackett...

simply listing of stats and in this case history doesn't lend any real content to a blog.

In essence a combo of opinion and stats is what makes ANY story compelling
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-2 #49 Johne 2011-08-08 10:25
So with Stone really impressing, what odds do you give Stone for making the team out of camp?

I really hate to 'rush' players into the NHL and we certainly have a full roster, but if this kid is dominating at the WHL level and putting up points competing against the nation's best, I'd have to give him a long hard look.
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+1 #50 Highly Touted 2011-08-08 10:34
I am not a fan of analysis based upon the winning of an award as a method of projecting a prospects future. I prefer looking at an individuals skill set and make-up and personal experience.

Comparing against all these goaltenders that won the same award doesn't reflect their stlye of play or other factors, like era or opponents to team strategy.

Also, I don't like the discounting of goaltenders that played bad, because it is unlikely he will regress to that point. You can't pick and choose like that.
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0 #51 hello_gary 2011-08-08 10:37
Quoting conor smythe:
based on what he has done so far, and when compared with other goalies who have accomplished the same, I think Robyn Lehner will either be:

1. Good
2. Average
3. Bad

THERE I just saved you 10 minutes.



LOL "tl;dr"
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+1 #52 Smash_88 2011-08-08 10:42
Quoting Johne:
So with Stone really impressing, what odds do you give Stone for making the team out of camp?

I really hate to 'rush' players into the NHL and we certainly have a full roster, but if this kid is dominating at the WHL level and putting up points competing against the nation's best, I'd have to give him a long hard look.


I would be extremely surprised if he made it this year. He would really have to really blow away the competition.

That being said, if he goes and tears up Junior again and has a good WJC, he could very well slip in next year..

Foligno and Regin better step it up this year, otherwise they may be on different teams, because there are quite a few solid prospects that will push hard at next year's camp...
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0 #53 Sandy 2011-08-08 10:43
Another off topic...

Love your site Chirp... you my fav... BUT there is an interesting article on Silver Seven regarding 2012 draft.. it's from a poster....

Interesting read indeed...

http://www.silversevensens.com/2011/8/6/2346782/a-look-ahead-to-the-2012-nhl-entry-draft#storyjump
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+1 #54 Sensnation 2011-08-08 10:53
Quoting Alcatraz:
What I am looking for is an opinion BASED upon stats.

so for example say "I believe Lehner will be a franchise goalie to the mold of Kolzig because x y and z proves it"

then we can all jump in and say well reason x is misleading and reason y is biased therefore using your research I think Lehenr will be in the mold of hackett...

simply listing of stats and in this case history doesn't lend any real content to a blog.

In essence a combo of opinion and stats is what makes ANY story compelling


I'd just like to mention the opinion is there just not everyone seems to have noticed it. My conclusion was that he'd be a quality starting goalie and among the best of the entire group. Glory is a Stanley Cup, not just a winning season. As mentioned, I appreciate the feedback and the learning experience and will definitely make it clearer next time. Thanks again for all the support and constructive criticism.
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0 #55 Johne 2011-08-08 11:03
http://twitter.com/wyshynski - New Puck Daddy: Alexei Kovalev torches Ottawa sportswriters, ex-Sens coach http://yhoo.it/pN1zus
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0 #56 SensChirp 2011-08-08 11:11
Quoting Johne:
http://twitter.com/wyshynski - New Puck Daddy: Alexei Kovalev torches Ottawa sportswriters, ex-Sens coach http://yhoo.it/pN1zus

Oh boy. This could get ugly.
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0 #57 Sandy 2011-08-08 11:12
Quoting Johne:
http://twitter.com/wyshynski - New Puck Daddy: Alexei Kovalev torches Ottawa sportswriters, ex-Sens coach http://yhoo.it/pN1zus


He actually thought he gave it his all every game? What planet does he live on.

What he said about Ottawa sports media.. and beer in the luggage was very funny. Now we know about Garrioch & Brennan and why they suck as sportswriters..

Interesting perspective on Clouston....
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+1 #58 SensChirp 2011-08-08 11:14
What he had to say about Clouston is pretty much bang on with what I was told last year. Certainly not the first we have heard of that.

The guys on Team 1200 would hint at it all the time too. Definitely some communications issues.
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0 #59 Sandy 2011-08-08 11:17
The point is.... IF a player was benched it was because they were not doing their 'job' on the ice.

Wouldn't the player know if he was goofing up? Or in Kovy's mind.... it was everyone else's fault.
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+1 #60 Round Leaf 2011-08-08 11:18
Quoting Johne:
So with Stone really impressing, what odds do you give Stone for making the team out of camp?



makes no sense for him to be rushed into the NHL on a poor team. The best thing for him to do is to go back and dominate in Brandon and hopefully make the world junior team. If his skating improves, he could be a real good forward for us in the future.
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0 #61 Sensnation 2011-08-08 11:21
Quoting Sandy:
The point is.... IF a player was benched it was because they were not doing their 'job' on the ice.

Wouldn't the player know if he was goofing up? Or in Kovy's mind.... it was everyone else's fault.


I think players get benched for many different reasons and they can't be expected to always assume which reason it was if the coach doesn't tell them and it wasn't obvious like a dumb penalty. Kovy definitely has some blame in the whole debacle, but part of coaching is being overly informative with your players so they have a chance to learn what they are doing wrong. Clouston definitely lacked in that department.
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+1 #62 Johne 2011-08-08 11:24
I think its human nature to create a bias towards or against certain players, we do it, GMs do it, but to be a great coach, you can't do that. I think Clouston's dog house had too many repeat residents and this bias is what ultimately failed him as a NHL coach.
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-1 #63 meadowdog 2011-08-08 11:25
Quoting Johne:
So with Stone really impressing, what odds do you give Stone for making the team out of camp?

I really hate to 'rush' players into the NHL and we certainly have a full roster, but if this kid is dominating at the WHL level and putting up points competing against the nation's best, I'd have to give him a long hard look.


Check the "Feet of Stone, Hands of Gold" article by Allen Panzeri in the June 30 Ottawa Citizen. Stone does not skate at anything close to an NHL level. The team believes he may be able to fix this but I'm very skeptical, just look at Corey Locke.

You can enter any automoblie dealership across this fair land and find a salesman who has put up similar numbers to Mark Stone while playing Junior hockey. They're selling cars because they couldn't skate at an NHL level. Maybe things will be different for Stone but I'm not counting on it.
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+1 #64 Johne 2011-08-08 11:40
@meadowdog

when Bettman approves rocketskates in 2013, we will be contenders - Corey Locke and Mark Stone will be on our first line and Spezza will be the solution to our 2nd line center problem.
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0 #65 meadowdog 2011-08-08 11:44
Quoting Johne:
@meadowdog

when Bettman approves rocketskates in 2013, we will be contenders - Corey Locke and Mark Stone will be on our first line and Spezza will be the solution to our 2nd line center problem.


Rocket skates? Now you're making sense!
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0 #66 miguel 2011-08-08 11:47
Quoting Smash_88:
Quoting Johne:
So with Stone really impressing, what odds do you give Stone for making the team out of camp?

I really hate to 'rush' players into the NHL and we certainly have a full roster, but if this kid is dominating at the WHL level and putting up points competing against the nation's best, I'd have to give him a long hard look.


I would be extremely surprised if he made it this year. He would really have to really blow away the competition.

That being said, if he goes and tears up Junior again and has a good WJC, he could very well slip in next year..

Foligno and Regin better step it up this year, otherwise they may be on different teams, because there are quite a few solid prospects that will push hard at next year's camp...

on record in saying:
Regin, Foligno, Wincester, Michalek
better have strong camps, or others will replace them
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0 #67 Sensnation 2011-08-08 11:50
Quoting miguel:

on record in saying:
Regin, Foligno, Wincester, Michalek
better have strong camps, or others will replace them


I don't think Foligno or Michalek would be replaced, they are still better than any of the guys in the bottom 6. Unless u just meant bumped down a line?
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+1 #68 Johne 2011-08-08 11:58
I don't see Foligno having problems at all. His worth ethic has to be one of the best on the entire team and from what we've seen the last few seasons, he has continued his development year after year. His quote at the end of the season about turning down playing at the Worlds to improve his game really impressed me and I think he we'll all see an improvement in his game.
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+1 #69 miguel 2011-08-08 12:14
@JABS
BTW great article with tons of very interesting info on our future "franchise" goalie. No doubt plenty of work went into this, but I would have liked it a little more summarized, but Senschirp did mention he had to adapt it, so maybe that was the problem, anyway well done.
agreed with both you and Johne, yes they will move down the lines if they do not start well. But more importantly, we have plenty of youth itching to be here the following year, so if any of these do not come prepared to battle, come the trade deadlinet they could all be expendable,
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0 #70 Sensnation 2011-08-08 12:50
Quoting miguel:
@JABS
BTW great article with tons of very interesting info on our future "franchise" goalie. No doubt plenty of work went into this, but I would have liked it a little more summarized, but Senschirp did mention he had to adapt it, so maybe that was the problem, anyway well done.
agreed with both you and Johne, yes they will move down the lines if they do not start well. But more importantly, we have plenty of youth itching to be here the following year, so if any of these do not come prepared to battle, come the trade deadlinet they could all be expendable,


I agree, they would be good trade chips if they can't find that next level. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Thank you for your support and suggestions.
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0 #71 Sandy 2011-08-08 13:49
From what I read, Stone had 8 pts in 2 games of the Red/White scrimmage.

That is playing with and against the best junior players in the country.

Have any of us actually seen him play to know if his skating has stayed the same or improved... I would say we haven't.

If that was his weakness I assume he would do something about it.

Are any of you as interested as I am to see some response from the Ottawa Sun tomorrow?
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-2 #72 fghtffyourdmns 2011-08-08 15:17
I couldn't be arsed to read past the first paragraph when I saw the length of it.
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0 #73 megahockeyfan 2011-08-08 20:41
Solid use of analysis and statistics to support your points! Makes a very tough topic interesting. Great article and hope to see lots more!
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0 #74 Kelenna 2011-08-12 15:15
This site is like a classroom, exepct I don't hate it. lol
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